Laurent Giles 'Jolly Boat' Exeter |
J24 (Sail No. 4239) Dartmouth |
29er GBR 074 Tynemouth |
List classes of boat for sale |
Rule 69 - where are the limits |
Post Reply | Page 123 11> |
Author | |
gordon
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Topic: Rule 69 - where are the limits Posted: 28 May 12 at 6:23pm |
In recent months I have been involved in several rule 69 hearings involving complaints about the use of bad or insulting language on the water.
Reactions vary from: - it was time someone put a stop to this inappropriate behaviour - what is all the fuss about, swearing and insulting the competitors is part of the fun. Where do you all think the limit should be? Have standards of what is acceptable changed? When do you think it appropriate that sanctions be imposed? |
|
Gordon
|
|
rogerd
Really should get out more Joined: 25 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1076 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 May 12 at 6:52pm |
unfortunately the f word has become so much part of the common language amongst some younger people it has lost its value when your really f*****g p****d off.
There is no need for bad and insulting language on or off the water, but then I am of an age when I was shocked as a small boy when my mum said Damn. Seriously bad language in the young has become normal and acceptable so what may be acceptable in some fleets and clubs is certainly not acceptable in others. Very difficult to draw the line. Personally I would say that it is unacceptable to upset other water users.
Edited by rogerd - 28 May 12 at 6:56pm |
|
bustinben
Far too distracted from work Joined: 15 Oct 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 288 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 May 12 at 8:21pm |
Quite simple I think: If you swear, who cares.
If you swear at someone, that's something else. Think about the difference between: Bad mark rounding, got a boat up the chuff on the windward quarter, getting destroyed by the boat in front ... "F*** you f****king **** why did you do that!!" vs Someone just gets room at the mark, you point at them and shout at them "F*** you f****king ****". |
|
Guests
Guest Group |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 May 12 at 9:59pm |
Um, I don't see a difference there. In both bases you appear to be using bad language at another person. If you want to curse yourself, that's fine, but I wouldn't accept being spoken to like that.
|
|
Guests
Guest Group |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 May 12 at 10:19pm |
I would have thought you can scream whatever you like as long as it's not aimed at anyone (especially any form of name calling).
Doug
|
|
Presuming Ed
Really should get out more Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 May 12 at 10:54pm |
No doubt you referred to the RYA's guidance on 69:
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RaceOfficials/Resource%20Centre/Best%20Practice%20Guidelines%20Policies/Competitor%20Misconduct.pdf from which: Foul language: intended to offend, or inappropriate for the occasion or location. Penalty:1 - 4. • Warning, but no penalty (level I) • Increase the boat's points score (level 2) • Exclude competitor and, when appropriate, disqualify the boat: • from one or more races (level 3) • from the event (level 4) So, well, it all depends. Screaming "I'm f***ing going to kill you!!" at another competitor would make me hand out a level 4. "F*** off" to another competitor... I would think about. If he said sorry and it wasn't a vindictive shout, but just more sort of "oh, just f... off!", I would leave him with a warning. If not, or it was more, then I would up the stakes a bit. Bloody gets less than f***. And all this is assuming that children weren't involved.
Edited by Presuming Ed - 28 May 12 at 11:34pm |
|
Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 May 12 at 2:09am |
I have no objection to clubs or organising authorities making rules in NOR or SI to create 'family friendly' or 'child appropriate' environments, but I do object to attempts to read these objectives into the International Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS). The RRS are written, primarily to regulate serious competition among mature adults. If there are special considerations for special types of competitors, then add to or change the rules, using the mechanisms they provide. The norms to be taken to underlie the RRS are the norms of normal common behaviour, not the norms which schoolteachers, parsons, and the marketing department of the RYA aspire to, or wish for. Despite what people might wish, foul language is heard in the streets, and on radio. It is seen pervasively on TV and in films. It is used, on occasion, by all sorts of people, police officers, media stars, political leaders, parents and by children, in the playground, in the street and at sporting venues and other places. Sportsmanlike does not equate to 'gentlemanlike'. Foul language is a breach of good manners. Foul language, on its own, can never give rise to a protest for breach of principles of sportsmanship under rule 2. Make no mistake, where foul language forms part of a breach of sportsmanship, for example, attempting to distract, by repetitive hailing, gross personal insults, or foul mouthed abuse of race officials, it moves into the realm of unsporting behaviour and should attract protests and penalties accordingly. However, to return to foul language alone: rule 69 is the rule that deals with breaches of good manners. I could perhaps be persuaded that using foul language is always a breach of good manners, but the question to be answered under rule 69 is, is it a gross breach of good manners? The RYA, through its Charter, has set out to establish a 'family friendly' environment for all racing by stating as a Principle: Foul or abusive language, intimidation, aggressive behaviour or lack of respect for others … will not be tolerated. Note that the RYA has not adopted this, or anything like it as a Prescription which changes the rules. In my view, so that it is clear to everybody, any rules about bad language should be clearly written into the Notice of Race or Sailing Instructions. Bryan Willis presented an excellent paper on misconduct, by instruction, to the ISAF Racing Rules Committee in 2006. A copy of it is here http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/min_RR_07_11_2006-[3055].pdf It discusses the various contexts of bad language very well. It is well worth a read. By all means control your club and event environments as you wish, but do it by clearly written rules in the NOR or SI, not by appeals to some non-existent or imagined historical standards. Edited by Brass - 31 May 12 at 5:44am |
|
sargesail
Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 May 12 at 7:32am |
+1
|
|
winging it
Really should get out more Joined: 22 Mar 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3958 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 May 12 at 8:47am |
RYA racing charter:
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RacingCharter/RYA%20Racing%20Charter%202009-2012.pdf an excerpt: "Foul or abusive language, intimidation, aggressive behaviour or lack of respect for others and their property will not be tolerated" |
|
the same, but different...
|
|
r2d2
Far too distracted from work Joined: 29 Sep 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 350 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 29 May 12 at 8:51am |
did you not read Brass' post? he already covered that
|
|
Post Reply | Page 123 11> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |