Finish line, Direction from last mark definition

   We raced last night in light and variable wind. 
The R.O. set a 'triangular' course with three racing marks to be left to Port.
The start line between the committee boat and an ODM was also a 'gate' to be sailed through on each lap. The race was finished (for the majority of the fleet) after 2 laps.

The issue was that the start/gate line, which also acts as the finish line, was set obliquely to the preceding mark. At the finish, in the prevailing conditions the proper course for the boats approaching the line was contra to that of the course set. The majority of the fleet 'hooked' the finish and crossed the line in the 'correct' direction whilst others did the opposite.
Personally, I hooked the finish (got a hoot from the R.O.) then unwound myself and crossed from the opposite way, just for insurance.

Debate followed in the changing rooms, I maintain that either direction was legitimate in the circumstances. I think there is case history on such a thing, does anyone know it? Gordon??

Edited by Andymac - 12 Apr 12 at 12:33pm

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Andymac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852	Post Options Post Reply Quote Andymac Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Finish line, Direction from last mark definition Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 12:31pm
	We raced last night in light and variable wind. The R.O. set a 'triangular' course with three racing marks to be left to Port. The start line between the committee boat and an ODM was also a 'gate' to be sailed through on each lap. The race was finished (for the majority of the fleet) after 2 laps. The issue was that the start/gate line, which also acts as the finish line, was set obliquely to the preceding mark. At the finish, in the prevailing conditions the proper course for the boats approaching the line was contra to that of the course set. The majority of the fleet 'hooked' the finish and crossed the line in the 'correct' direction whilst others did the opposite. Personally, I hooked the finish (got a hoot from the R.O.) then unwound myself and crossed from the opposite way, just for insurance. Debate followed in the changing rooms, I maintain that either direction was legitimate in the circumstances. I think there is case history on such a thing, does anyone know it? Gordon?? Edited by Andymac - 12 Apr 12 at 12:33pm

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 12:37pm
	The only time sailing through either direction is legitimate is when its not possible to judge which way through is the right way. Otherwise its always from the last mark. Its impossible to set a hook finish because any attempt to do so would be changing a definition, which cannot be done in NOR or SIs. And yes, there is a case in the ISAF case book.

ColPrice2002 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 25 Nov 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Post Options Post Reply Quote ColPrice2002 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 1:02pm
	Hi, 32.2 If the race committee signals a shortened course (displays flag S with two sounds), the finishing line shall be, (a) at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying flag S; (b) at a line boats are required to cross at the end of each lap, that line; (c) at a gate, between the gate marks. The shortened course shall be signalled before the first boat crosses the finishing line and Finishing is:- A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment innormal position, crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark, either for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 44.2 or, after correcting an error made at the finishing line., under rule 28.1. All from the RRS 2009-2012 Colin

Lukepiewalker Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 24 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1340	Post Options Post Reply Quote Lukepiewalker Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 2:03pm
	CASE 82 When a finishing line is laid so nearly in line with the last leg that it cannot be determined which is the correct way to cross it in order to finish according to the definition, a boat may cross the line in either direction and her finish is to be recorded accordingly.
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Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 2:04pm
	I'm confused. If you were sailing through the line as a "gate" on each lap, surely you just do the same for the finish?
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furtive Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 30 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 188	Post Options Post Reply Quote furtive Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 2:46pm
	It depends how the "gate" is oriented relative to the previous mark. If in sailing the same course as on a non-finish lap you create a hook finish, then you are not finishing correctly.

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 3:33pm
	Not necessarily, no Rupert. Take this as an example of the common error. All marks left to port, start and finish to be between ID and 4. You finish by touching the finish line with ID on your port side and 4 on your Starboard side, because the from the last mark, 3, to the finish line, 4, is in that direction. Which way you rounded 4 on previous laps is irrelevant. Edited by JimC - 12 Apr 12 at 3:34pm

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 4:08pm
	Ah, yes, that makes sense. In a case like that, move the finish line so ID is down screen, not across, I guess
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ColPrice2002 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 25 Nov 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Post Options Post Reply Quote ColPrice2002 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 4:18pm
	In the OP situation of 3 marks, if the line is set above the leeward mark, it's quite possible for the finish line to be pointing at the wing mark... Then you can expect some exciting moments on the finish line. If you're doing lap timed handicap racing, then it's also difficult to move the committee boat unless all the boats are on the same lap. Colin

Andymac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852	Post Options Post Reply Quote Andymac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 6:47pm
	Hi, Thanks for your input so far... I wish I could work out how to do one of the diagrams like JimC's to accurately depict the circumstances. Case 82 was the one I was thinking of, thank you Lukepiewalker. The line was set inside a 'bay' (on an inland lake) and a dogleg needed to be sailed to reach it. Compounded by a biased beat which meant boats approached from almost the opposite way. It should be noted that there was an alternative navigable channel (had anybody tried to use it) which would have given an approach to the line from the 'correct' direction, but wind direction and strength rendered it unsuitable. The 'direction' of the previous mark was difficult to judge because it was obscured by the 'headland'. I would have estimated that the line was near perpendicular to a datum bearing from the previous mark. The wrong sided approach was very much dictated by 'proper course' but I would have thought that 'proper course' does not alone constitute the direction of the last leg over and above the compass bearing, or does it? And yes, Colin it was lap timed handicap racing.