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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 12 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by craiggo

So for those interested in the suggested changes for a tidal estuary, here are my clubs latest figures from PYS.

Looking at those figues, particularly the Scorpion, you seem to have a serious problem.
You have significant data, yet you are suggesting a PY 8% different from what you are using?
That is an immense difference, how do expect people to take your racing seriously if you spread the word that the py's are that badly wrong?

I suspect you have some good sailors sailing Scorpions?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 12 at 9:41pm
So for those interested in the suggested changes for a tidal estuary, here are my clubs latest figures from PYS.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 12 at 4:03pm

as promised a couple of pages back, list of changes for classes throughout the season.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 12 at 9:12am
Originally posted by JimC

Chaps, you may not know it, but in this discussion you are getting deep into statistical theory - far deeper than I for one have the mathematics to safely go and also far deeper than you actually have enough information to usefully discuss the topic.

As a rule of thumb more data normally beats selected data in statistical analysis unless you know *exactly* what you are doing, so my money is that what Draycote are doing will produce more accurate PY numbers than they were getting before.

If you want to contest this it ought to be straightforward enough as the sets of data are reasonably identifiable. What you need to do is get all the data, which I imagine is published on their website, separate the two bodies, that of times extracted from class races and times extracted from handicap races, and run a series of comparisons to see if the variations between them are statistically valid.

I have no intention of doing the research it would take *me* as a very amateur statistician even to work out how to do the analysis but it would probably be on the lines of starting with standard deviation and variance and going from there. Without doing this, well, I suppose internet forums are just pub chat...


All good points Jim, and for clarity it's all a bit moot, because ATM, I understand the handicap fleet just use the numbers off the shelf, so the issues around timing everyone, the added burden to OD duty etc only exist for a theoretical study.

Like most clubs I reckon there'd be concern from some if 'localised ratings' were used. A lot of the handicap fleet appear to be moving on too... But then we're very fortunate to have a very strong class racing ethos (I must be getting old to say that!!) and a newly growing moth fleet for the adrenaline overstocked, so I'm fortunate to have options.

Edited by pondmonkey - 07 Nov 12 at 9:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 12 at 8:13am
Chaps, you may not know it, but in this discussion you are getting deep into statistical theory - far deeper than I for one have the mathematics to safely go and also far deeper than you actually have enough information to usefully discuss the topic.

As a rule of thumb more data normally beats selected data in statistical analysis unless you know *exactly* what you are doing, so my money is that what Draycote are doing will produce more accurate PY numbers than they were getting before.

If you want to contest this it ought to be straightforward enough as the sets of data are reasonably identifiable. What you need to do is get all the data, which I imagine is published on their website, separate the two bodies, that of times extracted from class races and times extracted from handicap races, and run a series of comparisons to see if the variations between them are statistically valid.

I have no intention of doing the research it would take *me* as a very amateur statistician even to work out how to do the analysis but it would probably be on the lines of starting with standard deviation and variance and going from there. Without doing this, well, I suppose internet forums are just pub chat...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 12 at 7:06am
At the same time, same start, same course- yep, it's effectively one big handicap race with extracted fleet results. Okay there's a 'mindset' angle I could push, but I won't- that's jus argumentative.   

However our data is NOT collected from the boats starting at the same time- so I think we're agreeing it's flawed, but maybe disagree that it's 'within tolerance' of usable/fair data. I do acknowledge that the RYA is desperate for any data, therefore maybe this is better than nothing, but that's hardly a ringing endorsement for the scheme!!!!

Oh God I'm sounding like a stats man....

Edited by pondmonkey - 07 Nov 12 at 7:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 12 at 1:31am
I did qualify my example by saying that they were racing around the same course at the same time.
 
I totally agree with you that a large separation time between races starting or finishing could lead to a corruption in results/data.
 
Originally posted by sargesail


Now I would be the first to say that I have no qualms with the Draycote Dash methos of producing a single set of results for three fleets which start over a 6 minute period...
To me if the separation is more than you could reasonably bring together the handicap and fleet times and produce one set of results then the data is flawed...
 
With the caveat that the comparable races are conducted on the same course at the same time, I believe you are in agreement with me.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 11:53pm
Ok - let's try this Andy...

The 5o5 and the Mirror start together and they sail the course.  The difference between their elapsed times and exposure to conditions is largely driven by their performance difference.  (And there are those eg HISC which quantify this for tide in their handicap racing by adjusting PYs).

It is possible to argue that the Mirror is overall likely to suffer by sailing in a dying breeze more than the 5o5 across the years (timescale required to build data)....if you accept this you would also have to accept that it is factored into the PY already....but this is a side issue (until we come to separating their start time).

Now I would be the first to say that I have no qualms with the Draycote Dash methos of producing a single set of results for three fleets which start over a 6 minute period (although it can produce some anomalous results as evidenced by the race last year in which the later starting slow fleet caught most of the medium and fast fleets).

So we need a way to remove the anomalies....how do we judge them?

Then how long is acceptable?  Let's say the fleet has two general recalls (it's a fleet so even in Clubracing it happens) on a 5 minute start sequence....so the separation is at least 15 minutes.  Still OK?  Let's say the Mirror takes 20 minutes longer to sail the course - the 50% takes an hour -  that's fully 35 minutes of different conditions or half the 505s race length...

If that's OK what about 505s do the morning and Mirrors the afternoon - still reasonable?

To me if the separation is more than you could reasonably bring together the handicap and fleet times and produce one set of results then the data is flawed...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 11:23pm
Apologies for the misappropriation.
I think you are missing the point that I am trying to make, in that everybody is 'racing' around the same course (if not each other) at the same time. i.e. trying to get around the course as quickly as possible.
I don't understand why you would accept the results between say a 5o5 and a Mirror dinghy which briefly 'started' a race together, whilst dismiss a fleet of twenty SMOD's racing around the same course at the same time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 12 at 10:37pm
It's Matt analogy, not mine, but it doesn't matter, I agree with him... Sorry boats that don't even know they're racing are not racing; either under RRS or basic logic. Or has PY racing reached a new all-time low where finally at least no one is pretending there's a race on!!!

It's a joke right???

Edited by pondmonkey - 06 Nov 12 at 10:54pm
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