New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Upwind Windward heel does it work
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Upwind Windward heel does it work

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
laser193713 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 13 May 09
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 882
Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 12 at 1:06am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac



The first instance I ever recall seeing about windward heel being beneficial was by David Thomas sailing the Unit in the Olympic singlehander trials way back when.  He felt he went quicker on Unit with windward heel, dug around for an explanation and came up with a graph showing the effect of dihedral on aircraft wings. 

Basically the graph showed that lift decreased with dihedral, as you'd expect, but also that at 0 dihedral angle the curve had slope, implying that if you extrapolated it for negative dihedral, lift would increase for the first few degrees at least. I think I've found the graph in question, and am inclined to think he's putting too much faith in the experimental data, or that there were special circumstances, such as the presence of a fuselage. Nonetheless, there might be a slight benefit - which thought gives me a morale boost when I'm heeling to windward, at least!

He always taught me that it was just in a very small wind range that it paid.  I guess part of it could be due to less wetted surface area but what he has always told me is that it was to make sure the boat is powered up 100% of the time.  The boat naturally wanting to bear away slightly just keeps you on full power all the time.

Obviously when the wind is so light that the boom falls into the middle of the boat then this is not fast but we are only talking very slight angles of heel.  This is a very different thing to kiting the boat over to windward on a run, that is to put the rig over the centreboard and realign the CLR and CLD. 

The important thing to remember about the whole windward heel thing is that it is only for a very small wind range, sort of 6-8 knots, perhaps 9 knots at a push in an underpowered boat.  

Also, in all my years of laser sailing at a pretty high level I never once saw anyone sailing upwind heeled to windward.  I am slightly suspicious that it is just a made up talking point for the DVD. The only time I have ever done it myself was back in my oppy days, it was occasionally fast, i think, but there are too many variables to really know.  I could never get it to feel right in the laser and nobody else was doing it that I could tell!?
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8563
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 12 at 8:48am
Of course, for most of us, if we think we are heeling to windward, it probably just means we are upright for a change!
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 12 at 9:32am

There have been times when I didn't think we'd make the mark so we gave it a go,  bingo we  made the mark......but this could be because we over/under estimated the tide in the first place.......I guess 2 boat practice would give some clues as to whether it works.



Edited by GK.LaserII - 13 Mar 12 at 9:35am
Back to Top
dics View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 05 Oct 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 317
Post Options Post Options   Quote dics Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 12 at 1:11pm

Unless there are lots of waves I will heal the 300 to windward when sailing up wind. I do this by slightly overflattening the sail. Once I am there I use the rudder to head up very so slightly to keep my lane and the boat balanced. It is a fine adjustment that is not constantly required. This seems to get the folis to lift me quite a bit without too much lost speed.

Ofcourse it takes time to get right and to find the best conditions to do it in for your boat and should be just one technique in your amoury for getting upwind. The best thing about it is when you reach the windward mark your boat is nicely balanced to initate that smooth bearaway without digging in the bow. 
 
Mind you, this is what I think I do. If I saw myself I would probably think otherwise!!
 
 
Back to Top
Oatsandbeans View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 19 Sep 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 12 at 7:34pm
I suspect that if this works it only works in a narrow range of conditions ( Wind speed,water conditions, and boat type) and If it does deliver less leeway, it does at the expense of a lot of speed, and I would expect your VMG to suffer. But that being said there could be times when it is just what you need on the racecourse, To hold a lane or lay a mark.
Back to Top
kingdacks View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king
Avatar

Joined: 04 Oct 11
Location: Poole
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 148
Post Options Post Options   Quote kingdacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 12 at 7:59pm

Would like to know if its actually possible. The laser as you said has little free board.It seems to work on the dvd particulary well in the rs300 on the dvd.   Im not sure it worked well for me and certainly your sail setting would have to be slightly different.

Back to Top
sargesail View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1371
Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 12 at 8:16pm
Well the 300 has bags of freeboard which helps.  I would use the etchnique in most conditions - it definitely pays to make the weight if the rig work for you when it's windy.  I'd say that of even the 2K in flat water (but it's not often flat enough to work it).

In lighter airs I think it works - I was convinced by a good explanation in one of the Laser reacing books by Glen Bourke.  can't lay my hands on it now.

BTW my technique for am I heeling to windward is where is the water in teh boat lying. 
Back to Top
kingdacks View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king
Avatar

Joined: 04 Oct 11
Location: Poole
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 148
Post Options Post Options   Quote kingdacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 12 at 8:24pm
Yes i own that glen bourke book and was convinced also when i watch boat whisperer dvd.Interestingly does this not push you sideways rather than forward becuase of the flow or direction on the hull
Back to Top
NickA View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 701
Post Options Post Options   Quote NickA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 12 at 10:09pm
I guess some of you saw that Merlin Rocket at the dinghy show that was specially designed to cant the mast into the wind whilst keeping the hull flat (and many miles of rope invested in achieving it).  But this, note, is all about canting the mast whilst keeping the hull FLAT (so nothing about hull steering or foil lift).

I was talking about it to Kevan Bloor (the man behind Alverbank sails) and he reckons boats do point better when heeled to windward due to reduced tip loss (like a windsurfer which can point quite high for something with such a short rig).  Also Note some stuff about ice yachts in Bethwaite's Bible and the way the Farr 3.7 rig bends the top of the mast to windward as the mast rotates.  Evidently some people are firm believers.

One, very good laser sailor, I've sailed the Javelin with always heels it to windward in light winds abnd it does point up (at the expense of being able to detect shifts from the tell tales so easily).  On the other hand, if we want the get the Javelin really pointing we heel it to leeward - but at a massive loss in speed.

During a discussion at said dinghy show with Mr Medway he certainly considered it all to be B$$ll$cks, but I do note that both he and the current 3k national champ heel their boats to windward up wind.

Could be just that if you heel the boat to windward, then gusts knock you upright (which is quick) than over to leeward (which isn't).

Who knows, try it and see.

3604 ...lapse of reason
Javelin 558
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy