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Match Racing in Handicap fleets

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maxibuddah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by Neal_g


sportsmanship match racing is part of the sport in any field of play. i believe the phantom comes under the lipstick classes mentioned in other posts so is that sporting having a modified boat from stock handicap unfair advantage not sporting. i doubt it 

Whatever the feeling about what the Fireball did to the Phantom, Laser or whatever is, to make a statement about the Phantom being a modified boat from stock handicap and it is not sporting is unfair. The Phantom has been in this configuration for approximately 10 years. It is not the boats fault that until recently the PY system is not fast enough to keep up with the performance increase that has come with the 'lipsticking' of the class. Has anything ever been done to the Fireball within the class rules that increased performance? If so then it has been 'lipsticked' too. Recently though the PY has come down from 1051 to 1030 and in the instances of the PY in this Sailjuice series is lower (I believe, sorry haven't actually checked). The Phantom is faster than a Fireball in light stuff, as you would expect it to be to be honest. It has virtually the same mainsail and only one bod onboard, which gives it a advantage. The Fireball however disappears from a Phantom in a force 3 and above. Does that mean that its PY is fair, I doubt it, but thats what happens with PY's. You cannot satisfy everyone all of the time.

Bearing this in mind you can hardly call it unsporting, it has nothing to do with the helm. Deliberately sailing someone down a fleet to gain advantage could however be called unsporting, depending on your views of it as it is the boat crews responsibility. I'm not saying at this point that what the Fireball did was unsporting, it was within the rules and therefore there is little that can be done. I would certainly be p*ssed off if it happened to me knowing that while totally legal, the Fireball felt that it couldn't beat me without resorting to this tactic, though this obviously makes me a hypocrite as I would do the same in a single class race...  Confused

Don't forget that while the Fireball could do this to the Phantom/Laser, etc in lightwinds, this could not be reciprocated when windier as the Fireball would just sail away. Surely it is only a fair action if the same action could be taken by both parties in the different wind strengths? In this instance it must be said that it couldn't, therefore the Fireball has an unfair advantage over the slower boats.



Edited by maxibuddah - 01 Mar 12 at 10:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 7:10am
true but I've been wanting to make the point of my last paragraph for ages but wanted to stay out of it, however a label of unsporting against a sailor because of the boat they sail is a step too far.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neal_g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 7:56am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

true but I've been wanting to make the point of my last paragraph for ages but wanted to stay out of it, however a label of unsporting against a sailor because of the boat they sail is a step too far.
 
possibly but labeling a sailor unsporting as he has a good undertanding of the rules and uses them to his advantage  is exactly the same step too far.
 
the basic lack of rule observance is more unsporting and discourteous than actually using the rules correctly.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 8:09am
+1
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 8:22am
Originally posted by Neal_g

Originally posted by maxibuddah

true but I've been wanting to make the point of my last paragraph for ages but wanted to stay out of it, however a label of unsporting against a sailor because of the boat they sail is a step too far.

 

possibly but labeling a sailor unsporting as he has a good undertanding of the rules and uses them to his advantage  is exactly the same step too far.

 

the basic lack of rule observance is more unsporting and discourteous than actually using the rules correctly.


I would agree with your last point to an extent. if deliberate then yes, but for a lot of sailors,it is down to ignorance, which of course isn't really an excuse as they should know better. A deliberate action though is inexcusable and is cheating and unsporting. I personally class sailing a slower boat down when I know that they could never do it to also unsporting, but that is my opinion and each to their own. As you say they didn't break the rules and they did what they could to win overall and that is up to them. That is up to their conscience and I am not going to blame them while the rules allow it, its just that I wouldn't do it, that's all.

however my real point was not specifically at the sailors in the Fireball, hence the reason for not using their names, but more the actions that anyone could take in their position. I feel it is unfair and unsporting when someone can do what they did in those conditions, but the reciprocal cannot be done in the opposite conditions. If the slower boats could sail the faster boat down once the wind was up, fair enough but we all know that ain't going to happen.

And this is the crux of my point - It has to be able to happen both ways for it to be fair and in this example it cannot.

As for your original point, I've been thinking on the way to work and I think I know of anyone (though there might be someone of course) in the phantom class who has bought the boat specifically to win on a 'favourable' PY and therefore be labelled unsporting, which was your insinuation, and I do know a majority of the fleet.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote bob3021 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 9:36am
This is all such a pity - Sam is a very talented sailor and really didn't need to do this - am sure he knew what he was doing so to backtrack afterwards and apologise seems to be a bit strange.

Either you are happy to do it - so go do it and don't apologise

or you are not happy to do it
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 9:50am
probably felt that he had to from the backlash from forums such as these, left him in an almost untenable position. As he said in the statement, he had checked that the rules allowed this and therefore only sailed within the rules.

It seems to me that it could be construed as a conflict between the British sense of fair play against winning at all costs. They did nothing wrong but are perceived as being wrong because that is not what us Brits should do...blah, blah, blah. Note that the British sense of fair play didn't seem to exist when we were taking in the locals with a Winchester rifle and all they had were sharpened pieces of mango....

Now before you have a go at me for being hypocritical, I hope that I managed to get across that I am not blaming them per se but rather the rules that allow them to do so as being unfair, and if I haven't, I meant to so sorry if that is the case.

As for changing the rules, I have about as much chance of doing that as becoming the next Phantom national champ. None. the whole system is tied up on politics that I doubt even our national body has very much influence on the actual rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 10:22am
Not sure it's that hard to change the rules?
Can it be done at NoR/SI level in this case?
If so, a reasoned campaign to the relevant clubs might work.
Any thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 3:07pm
Q&A -2010-38 clearly states that "match racing" in handicap fleets does not break rule2.

It is a pity no-one protested. Then our sport's dispute resolution process could have been used.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 3:49pm
Gordon with all due respect I think your last post misses the point a bit - we (hopefully) understand the rules and the requirements for protests etc, but what is being questioned is whether the rules as they stand are sensible/fair
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