New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Match Racing in Handicap fleets
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Match Racing in Handicap fleets

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678910 11>
Author
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048
Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 9:23am
Sorry for the delay, I did submit a question to the RYA RRAS and they directed me to ISAF Q&A article 2011-22 which states as follows:
 

A 001 Q&A 2011-022

Published: 28 November 2011

This Q&A replaces old Q&A A 001, withdrawn on 18 November 2011.

Situation

In a fleet race, Boat A adopts tactics that clearly interfere with and hinder Boat B's progress in the

race. While using those tactics, boat A does not break any rule, except possibly rule 2.

Question

In which of the following circumstances would Boat As tactics be considered unsportsmanlike and

a breach of rule 2?

(a) Boat As tactics benefit her series result.

(b) Boat As tactics increase her chances of gaining selection for another event.

(c) Boat As tactics increase her chances of gaining selection to her national team.

(d) Boat A and Boat C had agreed that they would both adopt tactics that benefited Boat Cs

series result.

(e) Boat A was attempting to worsen Boat Bs race or series score for reasons unconnected

with sport.

Answer

In circumstances (a), (b) and (c), Boat A would be in compliance with recognised principles of

sportsmanship and fair play because there is a sporting reason for her actions.

In circumstance (d), both Boat A and Boat C would clearly break rule 2. In addition, by receiving

help prohibited by rule 41 from Boat A, Boat C would also break rule 41.

In circumstance (e) Boat A would break rule 2 because, with no good sporting reason, her actions

would clearly break recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play.

Now it would appear that because there is a 'sporting' reason for the behaviour of the Fireball then it looks like this is may be legal. I have asked the very helpful person who has replied if this applies between boats that are on different starts or if this would require a seperate Q&A to be submitted (this could be the reason for the delay in response to other queries).
 
IMO this is still against fair and sportmanlike principles (if you can't win fairly then you should not win).
 
The other questions about the Dash NOR not mentioning it was part of the SJ series is a question for the organisers.
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
tamsin View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 11 Feb 08
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14
Post Options Post Options   Quote tamsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 9:47am
I am more often than not sailing in handicap events as well as fleet racing. I have to admit sometimes it can be fun in fleet racing to "match race" someone out and we have done this on many occasions. I can't say I've ever done it in a first race though...its always been near the end of an event/series so I think it would be a shame to change this.
I sail in general a faster boat than most and if they are not in my race we ALWAYS sail underneath when able to...I've sailed enough junior boats to appreciate how annoying this is.
 
But if I'm racing slower boats in a handicap race starting with me or not and i meet them anywhere on the course-in relation to the "which leg" as sometimes we "lap them"- we treat them as if we are racing them, but this would never be to the extent of completly match racing them out as it seems a bit unfair to match race a "slower boat" but we would probably sail over them (to slow them down a bit, but hey we've spent ages "ping ponging" out of all the slow boats...) I certianly would NEVER hang around to do it like the fireball did.
 
looking at what the fireball did in this event, how embaressing for our sport? I would hate for one of my non-sailing friends to have witnessed that... Embarrassed there familes must be so proud.... Clapand it didn't even pay... LOL
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6600
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 10:07am
I was aware of that ISAF Q&A, but I'm not convinced its completely applicable to boats of widely disparate performance. I tend to think of a fleet race as being boats of one class, although that may well not be the intent.
Back to Top
Jon711 View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 04 May 07
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 465
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 10:34am
Originally posted by JimC

I was aware of that ISAF Q&A, but I'm not convinced its completely applicable to boats of widely disparate performance. I tend to think of a fleet race as being boats of one class, although that may well not be the intent.


In the case that Oultonben, has quoted, the boats are of one fleet, but do have a major speed difference. But they are in the same race, and a due to get the same regards from the rules.....

We just do not know which rules apply!!!!!

I cleverly sidestepped this protest, I could see where it would lead!!!

Jon
Blaze 711
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048
Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 11:38am
Originally posted by JimC

I was aware of that ISAF Q&A, but I'm not convinced its completely applicable to boats of widely disparate performance. I tend to think of a fleet race as being boats of one class, although that may well not be the intent.
 
I agree Jim, the other question is the fatc that they were on different starts which may mean they are on different leg 9effectively). This would need advice/ruling from someone in authority though, perhaps even an ISAF case or Q&A.
 
IMO if boats are sailing in the same 'fleet' regardless of whether this is a handicap fleet or a fleet of the same boats then this will apply.
 
In the case in question they are in different fleets (although the results have been amalgamated to give an over all winner).
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3004
Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 11:58am
I don't think the word 'fleet' appears in the RRS.
The question is are they in the same race, and IMHO the answer is yes, as they are sailing around the same course to be in the same results for the same prizes.
They could have started together, but be in a separate race. That would be a different situation.

It's clearly a part of the rules that not everyone likes, but it is the rules, at least for now. I think changing it could have some poor consequences myself. Maybe it could be changed for these events, but it could be a hard line to draw in more subtle cases.
Back to Top
sargesail View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1452
Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

I don't think the word 'fleet' appears in the RRS.
The question is are they in the same race, and IMHO the answer is yes, as they are sailing around the same course to be in the same results for the same prizes.
They could have started together, but be in a separate race. That would be a different situation.

It's clearly a part of the rules that not everyone likes, but it is the rules, at least for now. I think changing it could have some poor consequences myself. Maybe it could be changed for these events, but it could be a hard line to draw in more subtle cases.

+1  I think there would be real detrimental consequences from any rule change that tried to deal with this.

And I wish people would stop hunting for a way to say it was outside the rules - same race, same leg, and a sporting benefit.  It's in.

And finally people have different motivations.  It might be that a series like this might be the pinnacle of their season rather than the nationals.  And among those who compete at the heights there is a recognition of the relevance of the tactic.
Back to Top
jeffers View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3048
Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 6:07pm
An update on this.

The RYA RRAS are due to discuss this at their next meeting so have declined to comment further.

It would appear they have had a fair few incidents like this not just at major championship/large event level and wish to discuss it.

It good to see there is passionate support for both sides of the argument on the forum.
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
Back to Top
Neal_g View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 07 Oct 07
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 323
Post Options Post Options   Quote Neal_g Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 9:16pm
well 8 pages of computer jockeys save a few people who actually turned up and sailed the sailjuice events and the dash.
match racing is part of the sport sam and richard are good friends of mine and bloody good sailers.
 
so heres my take define faster boat for me please!!!! reasoning make this statement is most people on here whinge about PYS being incorrect the phantom being an absolute bandit. so when PYS suits your argument its the deciding factor on boat speed.
 
sportsmanship match racing is part of the sport in any field of play. i believe the phantom comes under the lipstick classes mentioned in other posts so is that sporting having a modified boat from stock handicap unfair advantage not sporting. i doubt it
 
no rules were broken so no foul but hey some armchair jockeys have kicked off again same as last year saying its unfair. some posted about giving them a hard time about their actions do that ont he race course and you'll be in a protest for use of threating language as it can be construed.
 
rant over
 
 
(Redoubt Sc)
Miracle 4040
GP14 13407

Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com
Back to Top
andy101 View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 11 Jan 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 176
Post Options Post Options   Quote andy101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 9:28pm
Works the other way with a Fireball they have a sweet spot on PY in some conditions so can't really have it both ways.
Not sure many people are really having a go at them more commenting on a perception it wasn't fair - they also appear to have done it to the laser & it would need to be a pretty short tight course for a laser to be quicker than a Fireball..........
 
Anyway reading the comments Andy Rice has just posted on the website front page they are regreting it & we have all done things we subsequently regret at some point.........!! Geek
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 678910 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy