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Match Racing in Handicap fleets

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rogue View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:20pm
well if its okay, its okay I guess.... still think its the actions of a t**ser to target a boat on separate start from his own though.

If the series competition didn't allow for the two compete on the same track again, then tough luck... as it did, surely the deciding factor should have been the pursuit race, when the fireball could have caught the Phantom up and then dicked him down the pack if match racing was the way he wanted to play it.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:22pm
Was it one race started in flights or two/more races?

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Phantom Titch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phantom Titch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:23pm
Separate starts on same course... but results pushed into same series..
Titch ~:-))
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fraggle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:26pm
Several races.  The fireball went after the phantom, the scorpion and the laser over the weekend.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by rogue

Originally posted by Little Monster

The discussion of match racing a slower boat within the same race, such as a handicap or pursuit, is clear that its just unfortunate for the slower boat. I have done it and had it done to, its just part of racing.

However the debate following the weekend is slightly different in that the Fireball was not competing on the same start as the slower phantom. They started their race and waited 5 mins above the line for the phantom to start.

In normal circumstances I would see that as them being in different races and therefore breach sportsmanship.

As the event was the Draycote Dash does the phantom have grounds against sportsmanship for the Dash or as its also the Sailjuice does that mean that its ok for them to interfere??

Either way I find it very rewarding that they messed up and came in 3rd overall

 
 

well if they were on separate races (starts) then I personally think this is bang out of order... is it illegal under RRS?
Think if it's different start times it is protestable under rule 2 or 69 'Gamesmanship, defined as behaviour of questionable fairness but not strictly illegal tactics ' from the RYA 
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Fraggle

Several races.  The fireball went after the phantom, the scorpion and the laser over the weekend.
 
I am pretty sure that any PC committe worth it's salt would find a way to penalise the perpetartor under rule 2/rule 69.
 
This is clearly a case of going after boats in different starts (which probably count as different races although the results are lumped in to 1 for the overall series).
 
Bang out of order, I hope they read this forum!
 
My personal view is that this kind of tactic of using the rules to sail another boat out of a race should be a clear rule 2/rule 69 violation as the intent is unsportmanslike even if the actual tactic does not breach any other rules.
Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Morewindplease Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:50pm
Prizes for the top 3 boats were nice, I guess guarenteeing a top 3 place is pretty important.
 
Copied from the Sail Juice Web site
For the top three boats overall, a choice of the following options (1st place gets first choice, then 2nd, then 3rd):


    •    £200 of goodies from Rooster Sailing
    •    £200 voucher to spend with Hyde Sails
    •    £200 voucher to spend with Ovington Boats

£100 Holt vouchers will go to the:
    •    Overall winner of the SailJuice Global Warm-Up
    •    Winner of the largest class fleet (ie the class with the most number of boats entered in the Series)
    •    ‘Last Boat Afloat’: Bottom-placed boat to have a finishing place score in all five events.

    •    Top-placed Laser (Standard/Radial/4.7) in series: brand new sail from Laser Performance
    •    Lower-placed Laser (Standard/Radial/4.7) to have completed at least four events in the Series: brand new sail from Laser Performance

    •    Top-placed RS dinghy: £100 voucher from RS Sailing
    •    Lower-placed RS dinghy to have completed at least four events in the Series: £50 voucher from RS Sailing

    •    There are also six e-subscriptions from Yachts & Yachting to given to competitors who completed four or more events, with winners to be picked from a hat.

Prize winners are asked to attend a photoshoot at the Volvo RYA Dinghy Show on 3 March 2012 in order to guarantee receiving their prizes. Prize winners who cannot attend in person are asked to have a photo taken with their prize.
Any disputes over the allocation of prizes will be determined by the Organising Authority.


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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:56pm
23.2 Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with
a boat taking a penalty or sailing on another leg.

That's the rule in question.
If the boats are sailing the same sequence of marks to score in the same series, then I don't think the five minute difference in start time counts for much.
It appears to be scored as one race.
If someone felt agrieved they should have protetested.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

23.2 Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with
a boat taking a penalty or sailing on another leg.

That's the rule in question.
If the boats are sailing the same sequence of marks to score in the same series, then I don't think the five minute difference in start time counts for much.
It appears to be scored as one race.
If someone felt agrieved they should have protetested.
 
Correct
 
And as we all know Proper Course is the course a boat would sail to complete the course in the absence of other boats. Therefore the proer cours argument is right out of the window (IMO).
 
I think on the whole we all agree this practice is questioable (or downright out of order). The question is can anything be done to prevent it and what should we do in the meantime (aside from give perpeatrators a hard time).
 
There are times that we all have made someone go the long way around us or maybe sailed them a little bit out of the way to gain a tactical advantage at the next mark or had a loose cover on them to prevent them overtaking. In my view this is acceptable and part of the game that is sailing. Sailing someone off the course is definitely not acceptable. The question is where the line should be drawn.
 
As you have alreadysaid the aggrieved parties should have protested (as it was done to 3 different boats in 3 different races).
Paul
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:25pm
..... Sailing someone off the course is definitely not acceptable.........


Sorry, that is simply untrue.
As has been established with clarification from the RYA.
You can sail another boat down the fleet in an attempt to better you place.
23.2 is the rule which places limits on it and that does not appear to have been broken.

There would appear to be a body of opinion that the rules need to be changed ( I would be happy to see a change too) but that is irrelevant.
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