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Match Racing in Handicap fleets

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iansmithofotley View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iansmithofotley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 5:01pm

Hi everyone,

 

Personally, in Handicap Racing, I do not think that it is practically possible to change or introduce new rules to cover the scenario of faster boats ‘match racing’, taking out, or whatever, slower boats.

 

As Neal Gibson has said, in another post, “what is faster”. How can it be defined?

For example, if you were to legislate using PY numbers to indicate faster or slower, then how could it be done?  How close or far away from each other would the numbers have to be to serve the desired purpose or meet any definitions in any proposed rules.  Using the Fireball and the Phantom as examples, the current RYA 2011/12 PY’s are Fireball 980 and Phantom 1030, using the Great Lakes Series numbers, I believe that the Fireball was 970 and the Phantom 1015 (these numbers were used at Grafham).

 

In my experience, using the current RYA, PY system, 20 is about equivalent to one minute in a one hour race.  So a Fireball is about two and a half minutes faster than a Phantom in a one hour race.  Obviously, this does not take into consideration the wind conditions, the shape of the course, the size of the water or the ability of the sailors, but it is a very basic guide.

 

So how can rules be made to cover what we are talking about, as Neal said, “what is faster’.  How many sailors know the PY numbers of every boat that they are sailing against in any fleet (you may know them at your own club).  How could any rules or sailing instructions be written to cover these situations.

 

Using my own club as an example, apart from open meetings, 90% of our racing is handicap racing.  Our handicap fleet consists of many different boats from Mirrors and Toppers right through to 49’ers and 800’s.

 

We have a very good 200 (PY 1057) sailor and a very good Finn (1060) sailor, so is it okay for one of them to sail the other out of a race in order to win a series?  Of course it is (I would suggest).  I am only taking about speed here, and not whether or not it is a good thing to do, bad etiquette, ungentlemanly conduct or unsporting, which is another issue .  But is it okay for a Finn (1060) to take out a Laser (1082).  How big must the gap be for it to be not okay.

 

So when you are talking about faster and slower the question would be ‘by how much’ and how do you choose a number to legislate upon.

 

In my view, the problem is unsolvable and just opens up another can of worms, which we don’t really need.  I think that this issue is best left as it is and, rightly or wrongly, left to the ‘unwritten rules’ of sailing, including fair play, etiquette, gentlemanly conduct and being 'sporting' (call it what you want), whether we like it or not.

 

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

 

 

 

 



Edited by iansmithofotley - 02 Mar 12 at 5:33pm
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 5:15pm
Setting aside the 'faster' and 'slower' in all this. My overiding issue is a boat starts 3 minutes ahead 'in a seperate fleet' and has the advantage of waiting upwind for a rival... now surely that is not a fair situation from the outset... It may have been a little more palatable (not to my taste though) had they shared the same start. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 5:39pm
R2d2 -pt point is that because there was no protest our sport's dispute resolution process did not have a opportunity to decide whether the incident involved a breach of recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play.

I understand that the two boats were competing against each other in the same competition, even if there were separate starts for the fleets. if such is the case then the rules as they stand do not prohibit "match racing". This is acceptable behaviour for a large part of the sailing community, even though many participants at the event in question felt that it was not acceptable.

This is the second year running that there has been problems with this sereis. It may well be that some competitors are taking the event very seriously, for allsorts of different reasons. When this happens then the rules will be pushed to their limit. In which case, it may well be that the event format, or the whole basis of the competition needs to be examined.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Flick-Flock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 5:44pm
I havn't had a chance to read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been said.

Surely you could just stipulate in the rules, or even the SI's, that a boat sailing in one fleet can't interfere with a boat sailing in another fleet? (i've got a feeling there's something about boats on different laps interfering with each other, but can't be sure)
That would certainly have stopped the Fireball waiting around, and then going after the boats in the slower fleet.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by Flick-Flock

I havn't had a chance to read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been said.

Surely you could just stipulate in the rules, or even the SI's, that a boat sailing in one fleet can't interfere with a boat sailing in another fleet? (i've got a feeling there's something about boats on different laps interfering with each other, but can't be sure)
That would certainly have stopped the Fireball waiting around, and then going after the boats in the slower fleet.


A rule like that would stop you doing all sorts of things - luffing to keep clean air, positioning yourself at a mark to ensure you don't need to give water, and lots more. Given they were after the same prizes, you can't expect them not to interact at all, but there is a massive difference between the small things and what happened. Putting it down on paper is a whole lot harder to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by gordon


I understand that the two boats were competing against each other in the same competition, even if there were separate starts for the fleets. if such is the case then the rules as they stand do not prohibit "match racing". This is acceptable behaviour for a large part of the sailing community, even though many participants at the event in question felt that it was not acceptable.

This is the second year running that there has been problems with this sereis. It may well be that some competitors are taking the event very seriously, for allsorts of different reasons. When this happens then the rules will be pushed to their limit. In which case, it may well be that the event format, or the whole basis of the competition needs to be examined.
 
Gordon,
As someone else pointed out, The competitors that weekend were competing in the Draycote Dash. There was no mention in the D.D. notice of race or Sailing instructions of any parallel competition or scoring system. I think it is stretching credibility to use the Sail Juice series as a means to an end. What's to stop any of us sailing anyone else all over the pond (however much skill it may involve) in the first race of a competition, in the justification of some private side bet? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by gordon

This is the second year running that there has been problems with this sereis. It may well be that some competitors are taking the event very seriously, for allsorts of different reasons. When this happens then the rules will be pushed to their limit. In which case, it may well be that the event format, or the whole basis of the competition needs to be examined.
 
Hi Gordon
 
I agree with what you have said here - this is what I was suggesting in my last post (or do you see reviewing the event format as different to reviewing and possibly changing the rules or SIs?)
 
Dave


Edited by r2d2 - 02 Mar 12 at 7:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 8:53pm
The relationship between DD and Sailjuice is similar to that between ISAF Olympic class events used by individualcountries as selection events. Cases and Q&A basically say that if there a race is partof any series (not necessarily the event itself) then any action that improves a boats place in any of the series is legitimate.

I can't helpfeeling that if the 2 boats involved had not been in fleets with serarate starts, but starting together, then no-one would have see a problem. The initial cause was to require boats that were in direct competition to start in separate races. Perhaps Sailjuice should be limited to pursuit races.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by gordon

The initial cause was to require boats that were in direct competition to start in separate races. Perhaps Sailjuice should be limited to pursuit races.

Gordon
 
Can't go for that. The best bit about the SJ Series is the different format of each individual event -
 
GGP - 2 handicap races in fleets
BM - one pursuit race
SN - 2 handicap races in fleets
TT - handicap races + pursuit race
DD - lots of shorts handicap races (dashes) + longer pursuit race.
 
Why muck about with a great idea (690 separate entrants this year was it?) because of a little jiggery pokery at the end? At least 688 had a great time.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Mar 12 at 3:01pm
Are you so sure Steve
I suspect there were quite a few disgruntled entrants after they saw or heard what happened.
I suspect that since the Dash sailing instructions did not mention the sailjuice series, then the Fball was way out of order doing that in the first race. Shame no one protested, as this is behaviour we do not want to see in handicap racing. We don't see it at the big yachting regattas between fleets!

Andy

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