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Debunking Dodgy Sailing Theories |
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JohnW
Really should get out more Joined: 17 Jul 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 552 |
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Topic: Debunking Dodgy Sailing Theories Posted: 24 Oct 11 at 8:53pm |
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NO! Look at the title of the thread. You have fallen into the trap in thinking that if you come out tight you sail less distance upwind. True you sail less distance from the leeward mark to the windward mark but you are forgetting that you have already sailed an extra boat length or more below the leeward mark because the apex of your turn has to be below the the mark in order to come out tight. |
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gbrspratt
Posting king Joined: 26 Sep 11 Location: Felixstowe Online Status: Offline Posts: 170 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 25 Oct 11 at 10:52am | |
Why are you presuming that to go in wide and out tight people dont actually go around the mark? When going in wide surely you just make a shallower turn (keeping your speed on), come in close to go around the mark and then come out tight?
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rogue
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 978 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 25 Oct 11 at 11:28am | |
I think the quickest way around the mark is in an RS class event. Sail over it.
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JohnW
Really should get out more Joined: 17 Jul 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 552 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 25 Oct 11 at 2:06pm | |
I'm not presuming anything. If you exit close to the mark, then the mark cant be at the apex of the turn. I said earlier that for a given optimum rate of turn, the Apex turn is faster. If you have a boat that has a tight optimum rate of turn then yes, you can come out tighter but you will still gain (albeit less) if the mark is at the apex of your turn. In the following the black path is an Apex turn around red, the blue path is a "racing" turn around red. The blue path is effectively doing an apex turn around an imaginary mark (blue). If the red and blue marks were a leeward gate which one would you choose to round? Edit: forgot to say, wind blowing down the page.
Edited by JohnW - 25 Oct 11 at 2:08pm |
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RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 25 Oct 11 at 8:19pm | |
I wonder if the 'in wide out tight' mantra makes more sense when you are rounding from a dead run?
There is also the 'soft science' factor, it's not the line people actually take you have to convince them about, it's the line they think they are taking. By attempting to come out tight to the mark, do people actually get closer to a true apex turn? |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 25 Oct 11 at 10:28pm | |
I suspect a lot depends on how you are actually approaching the mark... If you are coming in hot with plenty of speed then the best choice might well be different to the choice if you ended up high of the mark and are losing speed as you try and soak down to it...
Edited by JimC - 25 Oct 11 at 10:29pm |
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ham4sand
Far too distracted from work Joined: 27 Jul 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 452 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 25 Oct 11 at 10:38pm | |
and if you want the highest lane when going back upwind, that makes a difference to your tactics
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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this |
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rogue
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 978 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 25 Oct 11 at 11:10pm | |
agreed- especially if that soak is all part of the plan to give you time to get the flappy thing down at the front. |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 08 Nov 11 at 4:41pm | |
Just found this thread...
How is that drawing anything like a mark rounding? If I'm rounding in wide out tight, my curve still wouldn't take me below the mark - in fact, I'm not sure it would be a smooth curve at all, especially if there was a gybe involved. Also, racing is about clear wind. If I go round the mark with the apex thing you are talking about, and supposedly gain a boat length, if that puts me in another boat's dirty wind, I'll loose far more up the next beat. If I get inside the boat I was following, I have the tactical upper hand.
Another myth - the outhaul should be pulled tight in light winds upwind.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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JohnW
Really should get out more Joined: 17 Jul 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 552 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 08 Nov 11 at 5:37pm | |
If you come out tight then you cant be doing an apex turn (unless the mark has the same radius as your turn) and therefore by definition you are rounding below the mark. My post says that the apex turn is the fastest, not always the best tactically. But when there are no other boats about it is faster.
OK, I'l bite. Surely that depends on the boat and the cut of the sail. |
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