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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1340 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Odd start question
    Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 4:15pm

For what it's worth I think you have to go with the downwind start rounding club to starboard.

From RRS Definitions:

Start A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the
starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1
if it applies, any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line
in the direction of the first mark.
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 5:53pm
I'd been trying to find somewhere in the RRS to back me up! Wish I'd thought of it earlier- would have been fun trying to first convince my helm to do it, and then to actually attempt the manoeuvre- the confusion it would have caused!
-_
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Posts: 818 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 10:40pm
For what it's worth I think you have to go with the downwind start rounding club to starboard.

I'd have assumed that the red arrow is intended to indicate the direction of the course between the yellow mark and the finish (if not what is it doing there?). As it's the only indication anywhere of the direction of travel and there is nothing in the SIs about which way marks are to be rounded then the assumption must surely be that the start is upwind as well and rounding are to port. I can see no possible support for a downwind start.

Also the SI's say:
The starting line will be defined by the transit of a movable pole in front of the race box and a cross fixed to the race box. An inflatable mark will be 
placed in the vicinity of the line to mark the outer distance of the line.

The club buoy may be badly placed but it's pretty clear it's intended to be the limit mark so the correct start must surely be to start to windward inshore of the club mark and then cross the start transit - I'd have thought anywhere along its length would be legal. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 11:54pm
Errk, that's not great at all! I concur with those suggesting that with the start as shown you should be starting downwind. I don't think the arrow signifies much at all. The really interesting bit is the limit mark, because with no decent definition of what its supposed to do it could do almost anything... I think you could make a case that you don't need to go round it provided you start nearer the race box than the mark is... Or perhaps that you could go across the line between limit mark and bank in the direction shown by the arrow, duck behind the start line and then head stright off for the mark... Weston, I'm suprised at you... think you'd better rewrite the SIs for next year!

Edited by JimC - 27 Apr 11 at 11:56pm
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 11 at 12:55am
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

For what it's worth I think you have to go with the downwind start rounding club to starboard.

From RRS Definitions:

Start A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the
starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1
if it applies, any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line
in the direction of the first mark.

I agree. See the bolded bits of the definition.  Q&A 2009-027 reinforces this.
 
The Club mark, defined as an Outer Distance Mark, lying on the course side of the starting line is a Mark.  It has a required side, defined (by inference) by the word 'outer' in the context of the SI as being "not outside the space between the mark and the Race Box", that is, to be left to Stbd by boats starting downwind.  See Q&A 2010-033 and RYA Appeals 2006/1 and 2008/1.
 
To the extent that the Red Arrow signifies anything about the direction of starting, that is a change to the Definition of Starting in the RRS.  Rule 86.1(a) tells us that the SI cannot change a Definition, thus the Red Arrow improperly purports to change the definition of Start, and thus constitutes an improper action by the Race Committee.
 
I agree that the course board with the Red Arrow is confusing and misleading.  Any boat that claimed that her score had been made significantly worse by relying on the course board, would have, had she delivered her request for redress in time under rule 62.2, been entitled to redress.  Unfortunately waiting for good advice from YachtsandYachting forums is not a good reason for a protest committee to extend the time limit.
 
Once it saw it's mistake and abandoned the race, it was a perfectly proper action for the race committee to abandon the race. Note that, unlike a protest committee abandoning a race under rule 64.2, the race committee is NOT requried to make "as fair an arrangement as possible" for all boats competing, but, under rule 32.1 is only required to "consider the consequences" for all boats in the race or series, and that only if the abandonment is done after one boat has sailed the course and finished.
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 11 at 1:10am
Originally posted by JimC

Errk, that's not great at all! I concur with those suggesting that with the start as shown you should be starting downwind. I don't think the arrow signifies much at all. The really interesting bit is the limit mark, because with no decent definition of what its supposed to do it could do almost anything... I think you could make a case that you don't need to go round it provided you start nearer the race box than the mark is... Or perhaps that you could go across the line between limit mark and bank in the direction shown by the arrow, duck behind the start line and then head stright off for the mark... Weston, I'm suprised at you... think you'd better rewrite the SIs for next year!
As discussed in my previous post, I think the ODM is sufficiently defined as a Mark with a required side, on the course side of the starting line.
 
I don't think the SI are particularly problematic:  the problem was caused by queer course selection or mark laying.  Given that the RC was able to vary the starting line by moving the lead transit pole, why on earth did they set a starting line that had the first named mark of the course to leeward of it?
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 11 at 8:25pm
Everybody makes mistakes.
That course is not up to scratch.
It's not possible to cross the start line 'in the direction of the first mark'.
Therefore no valid starters.
If all the boats went the same way, maybe it's OK to let it run, but at the first sign of people interpreting it differently, it should have been abandoned and a new course set.

Courses that encourage barging around one end of the line are bad news at the best of times, this is just beyond what paying competitors should tolerate.
Races need to start with a decent line that allows boats to start roughly level. That means roughly 90 degrees to the wind on a beat or run, or 90 degrees to the course to the first mark.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 11 at 2:03am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Everybody makes mistakes.
It's not possible to cross the start line 'in the direction of the first mark'.
Therefore no valid starters.
Take another look at the diagram:  both Orange Tet and Club (whichever you wish to consider to be the 'first' mark) are very distinctly on the downwind side of the starting line.  There can be no question of what the 'direction of the first mark' was with respect to the starting line illustrated.
 
The diagram quite closely resembles the situation described in Q&A 2009-027 http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QA2009027-[7230].pdf
 
 


Edited by Brass - 02 May 11 at 2:04am
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