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Odd start question |
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Lukepiewalker
Really should get out more Joined: 24 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1340 |
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Topic: Odd start question Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 4:15pm |
For what it's worth I think you have to go with the downwind start rounding club to starboard. From RRS Definitions: Start A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the |
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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
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alstorer
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 5:53pm |
I'd been trying to find somewhere in the RRS to back me up! Wish I'd thought of it earlier- would have been fun trying to first convince my helm to do it, and then to actually attempt the manoeuvre- the confusion it would have caused!
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Al |
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PeterG
Really should get out more Joined: 12 Jan 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 818 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 10:40pm |
For what it's worth I think you have to go with the downwind start rounding club to starboard. I'd have assumed that the red arrow is intended to indicate the direction of the course between the yellow mark and the finish (if not what is it doing there?). As it's the only indication anywhere of the direction of travel and there is nothing in the SIs about which way marks are to be rounded then the assumption must surely be that the start is upwind as well and rounding are to port. I can see no possible support for a downwind start. Also the SI's say: The starting line will be defined by the transit of a movable pole in front of the race box and a cross fixed to the race box. An inflatable mark will be placed in the vicinity of the line to mark the outer distance of the line. The club buoy may be badly placed but it's pretty clear it's intended to be the limit mark so the correct start must surely be to start to windward inshore of the club mark and then cross the start transit - I'd have thought anywhere along its length would be legal. |
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Peter
Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 11:54pm |
Errk, that's not great at all! I concur with those suggesting that with the start as shown you should be starting downwind. I don't think the arrow signifies much at all. The really interesting bit is the limit mark, because with no decent definition of what its supposed to do it could do almost anything... I think you could make a case that you don't need to go round it provided you start nearer the race box than the mark is... Or perhaps that you could go across the line between limit mark and bank in the direction shown by the arrow, duck behind the start line and then head stright off for the mark... Weston, I'm suprised at you... think you'd better rewrite the SIs for next year!
Edited by JimC - 27 Apr 11 at 11:56pm |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Apr 11 at 12:55am |
I agree. See the bolded bits of the definition. Q&A 2009-027 reinforces this.
The Club mark, defined as an Outer Distance Mark, lying on the course side of the starting line is a Mark. It has a required side, defined (by inference) by the word 'outer' in the context of the SI as being "not outside the space between the mark and the Race Box", that is, to be left to Stbd by boats starting downwind. See Q&A 2010-033 and RYA Appeals 2006/1 and 2008/1.
To the extent that the Red Arrow signifies anything about the direction of starting, that is a change to the Definition of Starting in the RRS. Rule 86.1(a) tells us that the SI cannot change a Definition, thus the Red Arrow improperly purports to change the definition of Start, and thus constitutes an improper action by the Race Committee.
I agree that the course board with the Red Arrow is confusing and misleading. Any boat that claimed that her score had been made significantly worse by relying on the course board, would have, had she delivered her request for redress in time under rule 62.2, been entitled to redress. Unfortunately waiting for good advice from YachtsandYachting forums is not a good reason for a protest committee to extend the time limit.
Once it saw it's mistake and abandoned the race, it was a perfectly proper action for the race committee to abandon the race. Note that, unlike a protest committee abandoning a race under rule 64.2, the race committee is NOT requried to make "as fair an arrangement as possible" for all boats competing, but, under rule 32.1 is only required to "consider the consequences" for all boats in the race or series, and that only if the abandonment is done after one boat has sailed the course and finished.
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Apr 11 at 1:10am |
As discussed in my previous post, I think the ODM is sufficiently defined as a Mark with a required side, on the course side of the starting line.
I don't think the SI are particularly problematic: the problem was caused by queer course selection or mark laying. Given that the RC was able to vary the starting line by moving the lead transit pole, why on earth did they set a starting line that had the first named mark of the course to leeward of it?
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RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 30 Apr 11 at 8:25pm |
Everybody makes mistakes.
That course is not up to scratch. It's not possible to cross the start line 'in the direction of the first mark'. Therefore no valid starters. If all the boats went the same way, maybe it's OK to let it run, but at the first sign of people interpreting it differently, it should have been abandoned and a new course set. Courses that encourage barging around one end of the line are bad news at the best of times, this is just beyond what paying competitors should tolerate. Races need to start with a decent line that allows boats to start roughly level. That means roughly 90 degrees to the wind on a beat or run, or 90 degrees to the course to the first mark. |
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Brass
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 02 May 11 at 2:03am |
Take another look at the diagram: both Orange Tet and Club (whichever you wish to consider to be the 'first' mark) are very distinctly on the downwind side of the starting line. There can be no question of what the 'direction of the first mark' was with respect to the starting line illustrated.
The diagram quite closely resembles the situation described in Q&A 2009-027 http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QA2009027-[7230].pdf
Edited by Brass - 02 May 11 at 2:04am |
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