New PY numbers for 2011

"Dare I say Bethwaite ratio performance prediction?"

   Is there any information on what proportion of the results loaded into SailRacer are handicap races.  I can find lots of results from open meetings and international meets - but these are all class races.  I know there are some stalwarts like Chris from DWSC who are doing a sterling job in entering their results each week - but how many races have been collected this way

I tried to use the system when it first came out - gave up because it was so buggy. Tried again a few months later - still buggy and seemed to be several different generations of code.  Having heard that it had been updated I tried to reregister a couple of times, but so far have not received a club id. 

Great concept - implementation not so great.  Not sure whether this is design by committee or not getting enough end users involved in practical testing of the early prototypes.

Mark

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marke Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Jun 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 211	Post Options Post Reply Quote marke Report Post Quote Reply Topic: New PY numbers for 2011 Posted: 02 May 11 at 11:39pm
	Is there any information on what proportion of the results loaded into SailRacer are handicap races. I can find lots of results from open meetings and international meets - but these are all class races. I know there are some stalwarts like Chris from DWSC who are doing a sterling job in entering their results each week - but how many races have been collected this way I tried to use the system when it first came out - gave up because it was so buggy. Tried again a few months later - still buggy and seemed to be several different generations of code. Having heard that it had been updated I tried to reregister a couple of times, but so far have not received a club id. Great concept - implementation not so great. Not sure whether this is design by committee or not getting enough end users involved in practical testing of the early prototypes. Mark

Wetabix Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 15 Feb 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 103	Post Options Post Reply Quote Wetabix Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 03 May 11 at 9:07am
	Thanks for your encouragement. Today I sent our latest race results to the site. On opening the site I see that half a dozen races are awaiting processing - actually they were all done months ago and most have since been deleted. I found my latest race but when attemting to process it it says that 'no times were recorded'. I re-saved it and sent it again with the same result. And so on. One of my races which did get processed used the RS400 as a benchmark. We have the same handicap and I finished 30 seconds behind. My 'recommended handicap' for this race was then reduced to about 850. This is nonsense. I also note that you get a different portal (if that is the right word) depending on how you enter the site. One has a generally red background, the other has a generally blue feel about it. Are they the same site? If you have any advice on how to get any sense out of or into this site I would appreciate a telephone call on 01309 690898. It's a pity as I am a great fan of the PY system which works well except for a few classes (Phantom?!) Rgds George Morris

Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 11 at 3:10pm
	........so in short: The RYA don't adjust the PY unless a significant number of clubs suggest an alternative PY (locally adjust). Most clubs don't do returns because of whatever. Many clubs or sailors regard the published PY list as gospel and don't adjust. Many other clubs who may have an urge to locally adjust don't know how to do it so don't. The software for the new electronic returns isn't very good and discourages some from using it. ..........so, is there anything that can be done by anybody? what I mean by anybody is: Is it up to individuals to do something? Is it up to clubs to do something? Is it up to the RYA to do something? or should a group of like minded sailors address the issue in an organised way? what I mean by like minded is: Those who enjoy handicap racing but would like to see an improved system or a better implemented current system used for scoring. Edited by GK.LaserII - 12 May 11 at 3:27pm

RS400atC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011	Post Options Post Reply Quote RS400atC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 11 at 4:19pm
	We could do all sorts of things, personally I'd like to see some racing on a IRC/CHS-like handicap system, where the yardstick you get is related to the power and weight of your boat, so in the long run it would benefit more efficient designs. Dare I say Bethwaite ratio performance prediction? Meantime, you can either buy a boat with a good yardstick and see if you do any better, find more comparable boats to race against, use personal handicaps or put your energy into sailing better. Or just enjoy racing a boat you like without the worry of polishing EPNS every year. This last option works for me, in between class racing. Alternatively, we could have a performance vs cash spent correction. I think PY's should be driven by the RYA, they could do a lot more to collect the data and be more open with how the data will be used. But I don't think it should be wholly results-driven, there needs to be an assessment of the performance potential of each class or of the sailors in that class, so that PY's are not too skewed by different skill levels of sailors sailing different classes. At the end of the day it's hard to get away from using the judgement of experienced people to moderate the stats. Just my view, I accept that PY is all things to all people...

Wetabix Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 15 Feb 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 103	Post Options Post Reply Quote Wetabix Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 11 at 5:21pm
	Well, I think we all know what the official answer to that is - clubs must adjust numbers and submit meaningful returns. But out there in the real world we know they don't do that. I think we all thought that if we sent in our race returns to the website the published numbers would be adjusted centrally and at club level we wouldn't have to put up with the flak of changing the handicaps locally. Unfortunately the website is somewhat capricious and even as a retiree I have only so many hours a week to devote to manipulating the results of our small fleet. One rather alarming fact I have noticed - where you have a very good crew in a class it is not unusual for them to finish five minutes ahead of the average crews. That is a skill factor of 100! With that sort of skill factor variation plus the vaguaries of capsizes, bad starts, traffic etc you do wonder how many returns you need to justify altering a number by (say) 1! And of course we all know that some boats are relatively faster in strong winds and so on. But the fact is that the PY system provides enjoyable handicap racing for thousands of people in the many clubs and at the many regattas where you can't get class racing for your own class. It really would be nice if 'someone' could sort out the software of the PYS website (and perhaps in its feeder programs such as Sailwave) so as to encourage the high rate of club participation that is necessary.

Guests Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Guest Group	Post Options Post Reply Quote Guests Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 11 at 6:15pm
	*"Dare I say Bethwaite ratio performance prediction?"* I've got the book, I'll try and read it again *"Or just enjoy racing a boat you like without the worry of polishing EPNS every year."* I seriously envy that frame of mind, unfortunately even if we had an active circuit we could only do 1 or 2 opens a year at the moment. *"I think PY's should be driven by the RYA, they could do a lot more to collect the data and be more open with how the data will be used."* That seems to be the concensus and as wetabix says we also need to encourage clubs to submit returns......I would add that they need to be adjusted were seen fit (I have no wish to start a witch hunt but most of us know what boats need a tweek on our particular water). I'll add that I think Bas et al are probably doing a miraculous job given their resources.......Anyone know how much is spent by the RYA on running the PY system? From a personal point of view I would like the RYA commit more resources to the PY system and be more transparent about the whole thing. I'd like to see a RYA campaign specifically aimed at encouraging clubs to submit locally adjusted returns (if that's whats needed), at the same time explaining to sailors generally, the need to do so......this might take some of the flak away from the club result gurus. I suppose my reason in resurrecting this thread was to see if a mutually agreeable plan could be drawn up for pressuring/lobbying/encouraging the RYA to do this.......has it been talked about enough? time for some action? Edited by GK.LaserII - 12 May 11 at 6:16pm

andy101 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 11 Jan 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 176	Post Options Post Reply Quote andy101 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 11 at 9:26pm
	A good place for the RYA to start would be to give some indicative numbers based on the stats they now have for different types of sailing area (Inland/Sea/Small River etc) - If nothing else it would demonstrate to Clubs local adjustments can be made & thereby increase awareness of the whole system & how it works. In most Clubs applying local adjustments based on the current system is to controversial & therefore ignored.

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 11 at 11:56pm
	The RYA won't have the returns to make a judgement on handicapping boats which don't really suit the water they sail on, and so are the boats that need the adjustment. To take a case that has come up before - a 505 sailing on a river. How many 505's sailing on a river are there, doing how many races, and how many races are returned to the RYA? Not many, doing some races, with fewer returned - certainly not enough to make a handicap judgement on, just the same as most clubs can't, as they simply don't have the volume of returns for most boats to remove CSF from the mix.
	Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

giraffe Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 10 May 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 148	Post Options Post Reply Quote giraffe Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 11 at 6:40am
	If the same effort that went into complaining about unfair handicaps went into building class fleets at sailing clubs then there would be less argument and relatively the problem would be solved. The solution is in the hands of us all.

marke Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Jun 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 211	Post Options Post Reply Quote marke Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 11 at 8:38am
	but Rupert would it really be that hard to generate enough data. The club I sail at - not a large one by any means - generates 3000 handicap measurements every year. So with a 100 similar clubs regularly supplying handicap results we could collect 300,000 results per year. Clearly this isn't going to happen without a more streamlined system, more innovation in the operational process and more importantly support and promotion to clubs - but it is only 10-15 clubs in each region. This will still not be enough data to deal with outliers like 505s sailing on small rivers - but it would give a pretty strong result for the majority of sailors in the UK. BTW the RYA system will not be the place to look at CSF as giraffe mentions - this would be done by local analysis of anomalies between local measurements of PY and the information supplied by the RYA. What we need here is a community derived approach that can be used as a guidance by individual sailing clubs. I believe the RYA are undertaking some reviews of their PY system starting next week - so hopefully this will be the start of an evolution to a system that will provide a better tool for handicap racing in the UK. Mark