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SI to Switch Off Black Flag Exclusion from restart

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: SI to Switch Off Black Flag Exclusion from restart
    Posted: 20 Jan 11 at 4:46am
Has anyone ever had experience with a SI like the following (from the Laser Worlds at Hayling Is)
 
14.2.3 When the race committee decides that its application of rule 30.3 entitles a boat to redress under rule 62.1(a), it may give her redress by not displaying her sail number and not disqualifying her (change of rules 30.3, 60.2 and 63.1).
The effect appears to be to allow the RC to 'switch off' the Black Flag afterwards, if they don't think boats deserve to be disqualified or excluded.
 
Does it work well?
 
Any problems encountered?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 11 at 8:20am
To be fair i would not have thought the sitautions where a boat may be entitled to redress is a matter for a protest comittee and not for the race committee who will have a restricted view of any incidents (unless they have spotter boats all over the place or the incident was blatant (i.e. boat on Port forcing boat on Starboard over).
 
Also are these rules allowed to be modified by the SIs (I guess they are given your knowledge of the rules Bras)?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 11 at 8:34am
I'm having trouble working out in what circumstances this SI would apply... Can anyone elucidate?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 11 at 8:46am
If a boat was thought to have been caught OCS, but a video playback shows that they were actually starting correctly? The RO could then decide they were fine for the restart, rather than it going to protest at the end of the day, and the boat having to be awarded average points, or whatever the solution would be at that point?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 11 at 11:30am
The way I read it it would apply if there was a race committee error that precipitated the restart, then they can allow them back in. Or something along those lines.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 11 at 2:04pm
Surely if there was a race comittee error the start would be abandoned and the black flag would be irrelevant?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 11 at 5:24pm
There are several reasons why RC may not be 100% confident in a BFD call. Doubt about the sail number or bow number may  be one of them. If there is an doubt then BFD should not be called.

This SI just formalises standard practice... If a sail number  is not posted then the BFD does not apply.

Much the same principle applies to RC correcting finishing positions without going to a redress hearing.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 11 at 4:56am
Originally posted by jeffers

To be fair i would not have thought the sitautions where a boat may be entitled to redress is a matter for a protest comittee and not for the race committee who will have a restricted view of any incidents (unless they have spotter boats all over the place or the incident was blatant (i.e. boat on Port forcing boat on Starboard over).
 
Also are these rules allowed to be modified by the SIs (I guess they are given your knowledge of the rules Bras)?
 
No problem with legality.  Rule 86.1(b) deals with what rules can and cannot be changed by the SI.
 

SI cannot change any rules in:

·         Definitions (except the size of the zone)

·         Sportsmanship and the Rules

·          Part 1 – Fundamental Rules

·         Part 2 – When Boats Meet

·         Part 7 – Race Organisation.

SI can change: anything in:

·         Part 3 – Conduct of a Race

·         Part 4 – Other Requirements When Racing except rule 42 Propulsion and rule 43 Competitor Clothing and Equipment

·         Part 5 – Protests, Redress, Hearings, Misconduct and Appeals, except Rule 69 Allegations of Gross Misconduct, Rule 70 Appeals and Requests to a National Authority, and Rule 71 National Authority Decisions.

·         Part 6 – Entry and Qualification, except Rule 75 Entering a Race, Rule 76 Exclusion of Boats or Competitors, Rule 79 Classification, and Rule 80 Advertising

So a race committee can rewrite the whole publication of SI and NOR, signals, starting and finishing, rounding and touching marks, protesting and penalties rules if they’re silly enough (and if they use the magic words ‘this changes rule xx’).

 If a starboard tacker was forced over by a port tacker your would be looking at exoneration under rule 64.1(c), rather than a redress:  a boat cannot be given redress for the consequences of another boat breaking a rule unless it causes injury or physical damage (rule 62.1(b)).

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 11 at 5:08am
Originally posted by JimC

I'm having trouble working out in what circumstances this SI would apply... Can anyone elucidate?
 
Possible circumstances that have been suggested to me are:
  1. where the race committee believes that they have made one or more mistake in identifying boats over in the original black flag start, or
  2. where there is a sudden wind shift or change in conditions, late in the starting sequence that 'forces' boats over, in a way that they don't 'deserve' to be penalised.
  3. where the race committee has set such a biased line, under the black flag, that it was 'inevitable' that some boats would be over early.

I think the main concern was the mistake in identity one.  This SI was drafted (elsewhere than Hayling Is) before Q&A 2009-031, which asserts that a race committee may correct mistakes it makes, was issued.  On this grounds, I think the Q&A now makes it unnecessary.

There was also possibly a concern for the case where only a few boats may have been positively identified, and then a whole bunch of other boats, who could not be identified went over early, so the notion was that it was 'unfair' to exclude those few boats that had been identified, while a larger number of boats were over early but escaped exclusion because they could not be identified.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 11 at 5:17am
Originally posted by jeffers

Surely if there was a race comittee error the start would be abandoned and the black flag would be irrelevant?
 
No, exclusion of BFD boats applies even after a General Recall or Abandonment (after the starting signal).  The only way the rule lets you off is if the race is postponed or abandoned before the starting signal.
 

30.3 Black Flag Rule

If a black flag has been displayed, no part of a boat’s hull, crew or equipment shall be in the triangle formed by the ends of the starting line and the first mark during the last minute before her starting signal. If a boat breaks this rule and is identified, she shall be disqualified without a hearing, even if the race is restarted or resailed, but not if it is postponed or abandoned before the starting signal. If a general recall is signalled or the race is abandoned after the starting signal, the race committee shall display her sail number before the next warning signal for that race, and if the race is restarted or resailed she shall not sail in it. If she does so, her disqualification shall not be excluded in calculating her series score.

 
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