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Multi-purpose dinghy: RS Vision, Laser 2000 or ??? |
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ScottM
Newbie Joined: 30 Sep 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6 |
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Topic: Multi-purpose dinghy: RS Vision, Laser 2000 or ??? Posted: 01 Oct 10 at 5:02pm |
Hi, The time has come (as it does to every Briton :-) for me to buy a boat. I've read and learnt much from other topics/replies, thank you for all the excellent info in this forum, but now have my own question to narrow this down. I'd describe myself as an enthusiastic but nervous intermediate sailor, and want my own dinghy to spend more time on the water to gain experience, knowledge and confidence. I'm looking at new rather than secondhand, and will be sailing inland lakes and sheltered coastal. The complexity is that I want a do-everything dinghy: - can be sailed single-handed, but is at its most performant with a two-adult crew (male-male or male-female) The Laser Bahia seems to be a more modern (and cheaper) replacement for the Laser 2000, so that's on the short list too. I've sailed a Laser Bahia and liked it, but it felt a bit big for some reason (even though it has similar dimensions to the others). Or looking at something sportier, there's the Laser Vago or RS 500. I'd happily sail both now, albeit with some timidity and probably excessive capsizing in the early stages, but they look good boats to grow into for my purposes. Perhaps not the best choices for the day-sailing requirement though, and how easily are they sailable single-handed? I'm curious how the RS 500 hull can be so light for its size, compared to others? Obviously it's strongly-enough built for performance sailing, but could the lightness make it less rugged long term? The Topper Xenon and Topper Omega also look a good fit. But Topper dinghies don't seem to be recommended much for private purchases, they seem to be aimed mainly at the holiday resort market? And several posts comment that they're built down to a budget with lower quality fittings - although Topper's brochures claim the exact opposite? Another factor is ongoing support, as I'd hope to keep the boat for many years. Some people in other posts feel that Laser aren't the best at long-term support (particularly for models no longer in production), whereas RS seem to foster a very inclusive atmosphere - but of course they haven't been around long enough to have stopped making older models. Then of course there's the venerable and excellent Wayfarer that's always recommended as a cruiser-come-racer. I've very happily sailed Wayfarers in the past, but compared to some of the boats above they're a bit big and heavy, and expensive (and no trapeze). I think I'd be better served by one of the more modern designs. So there's also the Comet Trio that's a modern boat in a more traditional Wayfarer-like style, or is that too pedestrian for my aspirations? Plus there are many other classes I haven't even considered yet; it's easy to focus on the big proprietary builders (Laser, RS, etc), but are there other builders with their own designs, or building some of the classic classes, that I should also add to the short list? I don't want to complicate things with too many choices, but also don't want to miss the ideal boat. Obviously the best way to find the right boat is to do test-sails in some of them, I just want to do my research up front so I pick the right short-list of dinghies to test. All comments / recommendations on any of the above points will be very greatly appreciated! (But I would humbly ask that if you say "boat x is better/worse than boat y" please explain why you think that. A lot of posts don't, which makes it hard to know if one person's preference is applicable to someone else.) Many thanks in advance for any replies. |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Oct 10 at 5:08pm |
I think you are wanting more than can really be delivered well by a single boat. If you try and tick all those boxes you will probably end up with something that does none of them well.
So I suggest you remember treat this as a brief affair, not a marriage, and refine your requirements to what will suit you for next season, and look to get another boat towards the end of the season to fit the nexxt season's requirements and so on. That also means I sugget you go for a secondhand boat of a reasonably popular class that you can sell on without too much difficulty. |
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radixon
Really should get out more Joined: 27 Oct 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2407 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Oct 10 at 8:34pm |
Ok I'll start but its difficult to compare boat for boat. I am fortunate that I have had a sail in so many different boats.
Laser 2k - very good fun boat, suitable for 3 people (thats what it is rated to) is light enough to handle and very spacious. Simple to rig/.reef etc. Laser Bahia - too heavy to handle singlehanded, not the best to sail singlehanded, very roomy for more people, sails ok but not the most glamerous of boats RS Vision - It is a great boat, plasitc makes it heavier to handle, sails ok. RS500 - wouldnt sail it singlehanded, wouldn;t sail it with 3 people in the boat. Too much sail//too crampt Wayfarer - wouldnt sail singlehanded, too heavy, great for cruising with 3/4 people Topper Xenon - too big to sail singlehanded, not practicle to cruise. Topper Omega - Its a heavy boat, didnt enjoy sailing Laser Vago - intermediate/expert boat, has to be sailed with trapeeze for singlehanded sailing, too cramped for 3 people, tippy boat. Comet - not sailed one but but they do look great boats, we have a trio at the club and it looks like fun. I'd shortlist to the Comet or L2k, nicer to sail a fibreglass boat, much lighter on the trolley can provide the fun and experience you are after. (All above are my personal thoughts and not those of the manufacturers etc etc.......................) Do ask if you want more info |
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winging it
Really should get out more Joined: 22 Mar 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3958 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Oct 10 at 9:17pm |
We have a club Vision and I have to say it's not a favourite amongst the instructors (myself included) because it's heavy, tippy, slippery, and just a bit of a slug. The L2k is an all round better boat (in no way influenced by the fact I may be selling one soon) but is it grp so the Vision is easier to maintain. If you want to race go for the L2k.
Otherwise I agree on all points with Richard, bar what he says about the comet trio, which is a very nice boat but also weighs a ton and unless you are very strong or there is more than one of you is a complete pain to move around on shore. |
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the same, but different...
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Oct 10 at 9:17pm |
Scott,
The three posts above sum it up very well, and I think your own perceptions are very accurate too. There really isn't a single boat that can meet your needs, despite what some adverts may claim. Of the boats you list, the Laser 2000 is excellent for a club racer / pottering boat, but is too big to singlehand in all but the most benign conditions. Most of the others are bigger and heavier, or tippier and more cramped.
I think you need to be prepared to compromise on some areas, and particularly decide if you want a singlehander or a two+ man boat.
An alternative is a Topper Topaz catamaran. Topper get a fairly bad press on here, but I think their 14ft and 16ft cats look very neat and actually fit your requirements list very well. Definitely worth a look in my opinion.
Edited by Peaky - 01 Oct 10 at 9:21pm |
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winging it
Really should get out more Joined: 22 Mar 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3958 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Oct 10 at 9:18pm |
ps, where are you Scott? I can arrange trials in the Vision or L2k if you are near Cambrdige.
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the same, but different...
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Late starter
Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Feb 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 481 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 01 Oct 10 at 9:43pm |
Agree with most of what's been said so far, especially the point that despite what manufacturer promo blurb may claim, any single boat that attempts to "do it all" will be a compromise. Personally if I wanted to single hand and to sail with the family I'd buy two boats even if it meant buying 2nd hand. For the budget of a new Vision you could end up with a very nice Laser/Solo/Supernova/Comet etc etc and an Ent/GP/Wanderer or whatever as well.
As an aside, please try and get plenty of trial sails. At my club I see newbies join the club having bought into the manufacturer PR and acquired the latest Laser/Topper/RS plastic fantastic, then spend a depressing season sailing around at the back of the fleet as the boat they bought didn't really suit the water or them for that matter. OK any boat is better than nothing (!), but my point is there are more intelligent ways of spending your money than thinking you have to have the latest and so called greatest from the big 3. |
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NickA
Really should get out more Joined: 30 Mar 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 783 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 02 Oct 10 at 2:52pm |
Just DONT buy new. Why throw money at something that you'll probably be trading up from in a few seasons. Only buy a new boat when you find something that you really like to sail and want a faster, shinier version of it.
Thgere are so many boats in the boat park that people bought off the brochure of a big manufacturer and then didn't actually like (eg Vagos, RS500s and umpteen heavy plastic classes that looked good on paper). Enough laser 2000s have been sold now, and the top of the fleet people buy new to stay competitive, so they are finally a reasonable price second hand. Personally I find them heavy and slow (the kite is too small for the boat weight) and nice though the high boom is for getting your head under (despite a very high freeboard), it makes for quite a lot of heeling force per forward drive - so vigorous hiking out needed to get best performance in a strong wind. But it's not a bad starter boat ... and should hold its value fairly well when the time comes for something faster and more fun. But, yes, those topper 14s look pretty good - you won't get one second hand yet mind.
Edited by NickA - 02 Oct 10 at 3:25pm |
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ScottM
Newbie Joined: 30 Sep 10 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 02 Oct 10 at 6:21pm |
Gosh, many thanks for the great replies. To respond to people's comments:
Yes, I fully realise my original post is an impossible wish-list that would result in a compromise. I definitely don't want to end up with a boat that does nothing well; part of the reason for asking the question was to gain some expert info to help me focus on a more realistic wish-list, and hence better choice of boat. It looks like the Laser 2000, or something similar, is probably where I should focus my attention, at least for a first boat.
I agree buying second-hand could well be the better route, plus obviously gaining more sailing hours in as many different boats as possible to help find the one that works best for me before buying anything at all. Next step is to join a local sailing club (probably Burghfield near Reading, where I actually learnt to sail many years ago) to address the second of those points and maybe the first as well.
No, I'm not going to buy the "latest and greatest" boat based on a manufacturer's glossy brochure - exactly why I'm asking my question here to learn as much about what the boats are really like, rather than what they claim to be like!
As for catamarans - yes I love sailing them, I was thinking they're more awkward to store/transport and less versatile than a monohull. So at the current time I was planning to stick with the latter and see about cats in the future... :-)
One further question: the comments above that plastic boats are heavier to move around is very useful, thank you. But looking at hull weights that confuses me: the Laser 2000 (GRP) is heavier than both the RS Vision and Topper Xenon, yet above the L2K is described as 'light' and the Vision as 'heavy.' Is there something other than just pure kilogrammes that adds to a plastic boat's heaviness/awkwardness?
Finally, thank you very much "winging it" for the offer of a trial, that's very kind. I'll see what I can do locally first, but Cambridge isn't that far...
Thanks again all for your advice, it's very useful and helpful.
Scott
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 03 Oct 10 at 10:54am |
By GRP standards the L2000 is a very heavy boat, but I doubt very much if it is heavier than a Vision or Xenon. Weight claims can mean various things - bare hull, hull and fittings, fully rigged etc, and getting like for like figures isn't easy. Of the L2000 type boats, I believe that is the best option (not the cheapest but holds value well) but I've not sailed all the alternatives and none of them are really bad.
The plastic boats don't hold rig tension as well as GRP ones (because they're not as stiff). Not a huge issue, but it does mean they are less well tuned in some respects, which could make them more awkward to sail.
Finally, if you're planning on joining Burghfield bear in mind the new Icon (blatant plug!). Mike Lyons who runs Cirrus sails there and is launching the Icon soon. It has neither a kite nor a trapeze, so may appear to be well off your wants list, but it is faster and better to sail than all the boats you list despite the lack of kite and is just as stable.
Have fun picking!
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