29er GBR 074 Tynemouth |
Laurent Giles 'Jolly Boat' Exeter |
J24 (Sail No. 4239) Dartmouth |
List classes of boat for sale |
Adjusting PY's |
Post Reply | Page 123 6> |
Author | |
RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Topic: Adjusting PY's Posted: 19 Aug 10 at 12:58pm |
My opinion is that PY's should generally only be adjusted locally when there is a justifiable, local influence. For example, sailing on the non tidal Thames, an A-rater is a supremely evolved tool for the job, whereas on a lake it is out of its element. Likewise British Moths excel short tacking up rivers but are mediocre on open water. Mirrors are disproportionately disadvantaged on rivers, because a high percentage of their sail area is below the obstructions and gets no wind. Maybe trapeze boats on small lakes deserve an allowance. But it should be a uniform percentage for all trapeze boats perhaps? |
|
Guests
Guest Group |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Aug 10 at 1:27pm |
can of worms....opened.
|
|
Guests
Guest Group |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Aug 10 at 1:36pm |
If a PY is allocated to a boat with any sort of spinnaker (insert boat name here), and the courses are set so that that boat cannot fly that spinnaker because its too tight etc, then surely the PY is incorrect. That's just an example of how it's never gonna work properly, however as it has been pointed out many times before, I guess its a benchmark / foundation for the ideal handicap race....."the holy grail" favourite expression from that film...."no, we have already got one you silly inglish caniggits" Timg |
|
RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Aug 10 at 2:47pm |
Where there is a significant 'fleet within a fleet' , does that tend to increase or decrease performance on PY? Sometimes a group of 400's seem to race a lot harder, because you get feedback from each other, other times we cover each other etc and let other classes catch up or get away into clear air. Over a series most of these things often average out? |
|
Mikey 14778
Far too distracted from work Joined: 05 Feb 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 298 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Aug 10 at 2:58pm |
I know it bugs me that in pursuit races the minority classes just have to hit the line at full tilt and then go as fast as
possible thereafter. Whereas I have to fight for my place on the crowded startline and then get up the first beat without allowing all my chums to sit on my wind - which they seem very keen to do But back on topic, yes, in a perfect world you could tweak the handicap numbers to take into account the size of your lake, tides, currents, height of windbreaks, length of legs, angle of legs, windstrength, salinity etc etc. Back in the real world I think you just have to take the RYA's numbers and apply them. Any attempt to get creative with them will upset somebody or other, and will undermine the principle of the thing. Using handicaps based on your local returns will just give you numbers that are hugely distorted by the people sailing the boats - it's a total no-no. The best bet is to lean on the RYA to have PY numbers for (say) big lakes, small lakes, the sea and (maybe) rivers. It still won't be perfect, but then perfection was never on offer anyway. But unlike a lot of other suggestions, it can be achieved - the data is there on the RYA's computer to do this. And if you really want to iron out the differences between old Phantoms and new Phantoms, then some way of getting the info to the RYA is going to be needed. If they can't tell who is sailing an old one and who is sailing a new one, then you can't be too surprised that they don't discriminate with the handicaps. Edited by Mikey 14778 |
|
Skiffybob
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 842 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Aug 10 at 3:35pm |
I think that any boat's PY should be locally adjusted based on the amount of beer purchased for other club members from the club bar. The tighter the person, the lower the PY goes. Sounds fair to me |
|
12ft Skiff - Gordon Keeble and the Furry Fly-by
AC - GBR271 - Whoosh B49 - Island Alchemy |
|
RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Aug 10 at 6:16pm |
At last, a scientific approach! Personally I think its best to keep adjustments to a minimum and hope that things average over a series or at least a season. Rather then try to correct for one day's course or weather. |
|
Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Aug 10 at 6:26pm |
God, I'll never win anything ever again... |
|
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
|
azimuth
Newbie Joined: 31 Jan 09 Online Status: Offline Posts: 12 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Aug 10 at 7:06pm |
Found this interesting statement in the information on PYs downloadable from the RYA website: '... the club should remember that the listed Portsmouth Numbers are derived from Yardstick Returns of racingon all kinds of water: sea, estuary, river and lake. The Numbers are therefore an average and thus, particularly with dinghies, may not necessarily be applicable to any one club. Accordingly, if after racing, a listed Portsmouth Number appears to be inequitable aclub should not hesitate to change the Number...'found at http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/racing/pages/portsmouthyard stick.aspx in Part 1 'Objectives and using the Scheme' |
|
Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Aug 10 at 8:15pm |
And therein lies the problem. No mention of a way of going about it when club returns are statistically invalid. Do you just say "Oh, boat X should be doing better than that, we'll bung on 20 points", or "Boat Y seems to be going a bit fast, always ahead of the bigger boats, we'll dock him 30 points"? If they are the only boats of classes X and Y out there, how can you possibly judge? |
|
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
|
Post Reply | Page 123 6> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |