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L4000 / 29er ratings |
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guytoon
Groupie Joined: 16 Feb 05 Location: France Online Status: Offline Posts: 82 |
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Topic: L4000 / 29er ratings Posted: 12 May 05 at 5:00pm |
Hi, once again during our last regatta 29er and Laser 4000 where discussing about ratings. Actually it seems that in france the 29er as an attractive rating. Laser should go faster than 29er. Here are the coed : RS400 : 0,7750 29er : 0,7917 Laser 4000 : 0,8083 49er : 0,9000 Could you let me know what you think of it ? Do you think 29er should go as fast Laser 4000 ? Does your ratings depends on wind speed ? |
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Cherub 2692 "NBS"
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Phil eltringham
Really should get out more Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: England/Hitchin Online Status: Offline Posts: 1105 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 05 at 5:23pm |
the RYA portsmouth yardstick system does not take the wind speed into account but is an average of results across all wind ranges (in theory). The numbers are (as far as i can remember ) 906 for the 4000 and 924 for the 29er. This works out as the 29er being about 2% slower than the 4000, or 71 seconds in an hour. For all the latest numbers and the calculations used look at the RYA website: http://www.rya.org.uk/images/uploaded/15dafef7-9b94-4033-ae7 b-43fef4a2ada9/Web_YR2_dinghies_list.pdf
Edited by Phil eltringham |
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Skiffman
Far too distracted from work Joined: 27 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 291 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 12 May 05 at 10:22pm |
I think that the 29er is a fair bit quicker and at our 2 clubs our handicap has been altered to 882 from 924 which is quite a large change. There are several laser 4000 that sail there but there handicap is still 906. I think that the laser 4000 has the potential to go as fast as a 29er but the 29er is a more demanding boat to sail and generally sailed by youths, so there is a higher quility of fleet. Not to do with the quality of sailors but mainly because we train very hard (6hours+ of land training a week and then sail everyweekend and during the summer hols). Just what I think but then I am biased because a sail a 29er. |
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Ian99
Posting king Joined: 07 Apr 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 138 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 05 at 9:27am |
You've got that the wrong way round. To end up with the handicap "slower" than the boat actually is, you actually need a lot of not very good sailors in the fleet, so the "average" 29er sailor would not be as good as the "average" 4000 sailor for this to happen. The more likely "cause" of the problem is probably that your club is somewhere where the conditions favour the 29er (I'd guess on flat water, generally fairly breezy). The 4000 leaves 29ers for dead in very light winds (it can also leave 49ers behind if they can't fill their kites ) Also in a really harsh chop the 4000 is probably quite a bit quicker as it won't get chucked around as much by the sea - something which certainly happens to the B14 and really slows you down. All the new "skiff style" boats will get left well behind on handicap in a really big sea though by genuine seaworthy performance boats such as the 505 and Osprey though, but very few people sail handicap races in these conditions. |
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Hector
Really should get out more Joined: 10 May 04 Location: Otley, Yorkshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 750 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 05 at 11:13am |
The 29er is mostly sailed by young, well trained, fit, keen, 'red hot', perfectly sized (for the boat) people.Oh yeh and Dad buys a new kite every time 'jony or mary' want one. The 4000 is mostly sailed by older, less fit, once a month club sailors who are probably overweight and have had little or no training and for whom the 4000 is often their first asymmetric. And the new kite? - only after the new kitchen, weekend in Rome etc! I'm suprised the handicaps aren't the other way around. It would be interesting to see actual speed differences with crews of equal ability. I suspect Ian99s assessment would be quite accurate.
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Ian99
Posting king Joined: 07 Apr 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 138 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 05 at 11:50am |
There is another factor with the 29er which I'd not thought of. The 29ers are sailed by young fit kids who generally don't give up (not sure if this is because of their enthusiasm or the fear of Daddy telling them off if they retire from a race). Therefore there will be a number of 29ers in club races (which is probably where the people just starting out in the 29er sail it first to learn how to sail it!) who actually finish on the water back with the GP14s etc. because of the large number of capsizes which are inevitable when changing from a Topper / Oppi / Cadet into a high performance boat. This will really help the handicap end up slower than it should be. For the "once a month overweight" types, after about three capsizes in a race, the prospect of an extra pint in the club bar is better than a miserable last place finish! Of course the 29er kids are too young to have been corrupted by the evil influence of alcohol and see the bar as somewhere where their parents sit while watching them sail and would never be tempted by the prospect of an early pint |
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KnightMare
Really should get out more Joined: 08 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1682 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 05 at 11:58am |
There is another aspect of that argument. The top 29er guys will be doin lots of training and events and wont always be sailing at the club so the numbers that will have been sent from the clubs will not include the top sailors all the time. this will make the 29er seem to be a slower boat overall.
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Stefan Lloyd
Really should get out more Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 05 at 12:28pm |
Ah, the arrogance of youth. So you expect to be getting steadily worse at sailing as you go on, do you? Might as well give up now.
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squeek
Groupie Joined: 17 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 43 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 05 at 12:47pm |
hey less of the daddy/parents insults. most of the 9er sailor r not quite like that.....thats more oppie/twinkie style.(not than im against them or anything ) i'm sure if you got your nat champ 9er sailor and nat champ 4000 sailor they'd both be equally skilled sailors. when i sailed a 4000 it starts neiowmin on a reach in like 7knots much more than a 9er does (could hav been due to lack of weight for a 4000) n im sure if the wind blew its boll**ks off they'd both represent there py pretty truthfully |
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Ian99
Posting king Joined: 07 Apr 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 138 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 13 May 05 at 1:50pm |
Is that a special 29er word? Can you translate for everyone who doesn't sail one? When you get a bit of real breeze* 4000s and 29ers (and pretty much everything else "modern") don't sail to their handicap as they are still on the beach with the boat tied down. *Real Breeze is the wind range 25-35 knots when the Contender and Fireball sailors are thinking about maybe pulling a bit more cunningham on....... For proper sailing conditions, you also need waves at least 10 feet tall.
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