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craiggo View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 2010 Portsmouth Numbers - Now Out
    Posted: 10 Mar 10 at 3:03pm
So moving forward can we take the RS FEVA XL as being the version with laminate sails and spinnaker, with a PY of 1189 and the RS FEVA with dacron sails and no kite as 1200?

I guess the class association should issue a statement making it clear to owners and club sailing secs.

Paul
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 10 at 1:43pm

Originally posted by craiggo

I think there is confusion regarding the Feva.

Last year there were two numbers 1189 and 1200. The former was against RS Feva and the later against RS Feva XL. Clearly this was a mistake as the XL should have been off of 1189.

I would imagine that most returns probably had the class down as RS Feva and the XL was missed, so the RYA have chucked it in at the 1200 number.

Yes there is confusion out there over the Feva with the different versions

From the web data, clubs have submitted seven different varients,  but looking closer at the data, it would appear that clubs have confused/switched the RS Feva and RS Feva XL, which makes things difficult all round.  There are similar problems with some of the newer classes,  the Pico is very confusing

Moving forward,  hopefully everyone can agree on the same naming conventions



Edited by Simon Lovesey
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 10 at 12:41pm
I think there is confusion regarding the Feva.

Last year there were two numbers 1189 and 1200. The former was against RS Feva and the later against RS Feva XL. Clearly this was a mistake as the XL should have been off of 1189.

I would imagine that most returns probably had the class down as RS Feva and the XL was missed, so the RYA have chucked it in at the 1200 number.

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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 10 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

Originally posted by Vronny

The RS Feva XL is in the
RYA list but its PY number is
given as 1200. Can anyone confirm this is correct? I think last year it was
1189 - but the new list doesn't indicate with a +11 to show that it's been
changed so significantly. I'm trying to update my club's handbook and
would
like to get it right.


By the way, is it true that the Feva class rules say you can't run goose-
winged downwind? In many situations the boats go better like that than
with
their assymetric spinnakers so obviously kids want to do that - but is that
illegal?




Yes it appears that they have increased the rating up to 1200. My
understanding of the goosewing issue is that you can't do it with the
assym. ( the helm or crew has to stretch out to windward to support the
sheet for this to work) but you can do it with the jib only. and you are
right that in some circumstances it is faster like this (even with only the
jib).

 
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 10 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Vronny

The RS Feva XL is in the RYA list but its PY number is
given as 1200. Can anyone confirm this is correct? I think last year it was
1189 - but the new list doesn't indicate with a +11 to show that it's been
changed so significantly. I'm trying to update my club's handbook and would
like to get it right.


By the way, is it true that the Feva class rules say you can't run goose-
winged downwind? In many situations the boats go better like that than with
their assymetric spinnakers so obviously kids want to do that - but is that
illegal?


 
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 10 at 9:00pm
Some interesting posts on the Merlin Rocket website about the PY drop!!
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Hector View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 10 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by Bas Edmonds

I indicated that the Miracle showed that its number "could" have gone higher. When faced with a large quantity of data, you can look at it all in a number of different ways and the PYAG sometimes have very simply decisions to take and at other times some more difficult decisions to take. Sometimes the data we get is also not of the highest quality and this also has to be taken into account.

With the returns within the Miracle S2C, of the ten returns received in 2009, 2 clubs showed a return 200 points higher at 1380 whilst the remaining 8 clubs showed an average of 1185. When looking over a three year weighted average, 1185 was also the most consistent number across the range.

At the end of the day, neither the RYA or the PYAG have the luxury of putting in a personal view on this. We, at the end of the day, have to stand up and justify to all of you why we have taken some of the decisions that we have done based on the data that we have. I did just this over the weekend at the Dinghy Show and in each case I hope I answered each of the comments put forward.

At the same time, I unfortunately do not have time to monitor this forum all the time so would ask that if anyone has any further questions on either individual boats or process, then please contact me directly at the RYA.

Cheers,

Bas

Thanks for the explanation Bas. That example (Miracle) is clearly an entirely logical process and conclusion.

It is however interesting to learn that the statistical returns are subject to final 'processing' by the PYAG. That finally nails the story that all PYs are based (solely) on returns - there is in fact subjective human intervention.

I know a couple of folk on the PYAG and can be sure that they take the determination of PYs for all classes very seriously and proceed very carefully and fairly. As you say, there will be some easy cases and some difficult, and again its good to see the example. My only concern is that they may be a little cautious on occasion and thus not move a class PY as far as the returns indicate. On the other hand, the use of a 3 yr average is a sound idea and may of course lead to an incremental approach where as described earlier, a change in PY takes a few years to fully wash through the system. I guess that's far better  than big fluctuations - potentially up one year and down the next.

I first thought that maybe the committee should be 'transparent' in their workings, and publish the details of their deliberations for all classes, but thinking about it, that would probably just lead to endless debate about the logic / reasoning, so I for one am happy to let you get on with doing a great job on our behalf.

Thanks again

 



Edited by Hector
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Andrewst View Drop Down
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Posts: 129 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andrewst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 10 at 2:48pm

The last time a V3000 activly raced at Hythe was over a year ago. Here we were forced to again use results from Wilsonian to get a PY as the race committe would not carry out adjustments as suggested by the PY system. At that time I believe they were running off 1000 hence my suggestions to the race committee as they did not wish to work the above system.

I dont think a handicap of 985 will have the slightest effect to the result we achieved 1 and half years ago where were ahead of the Alto and 505 on the water

I am quite aware how PY numbers for other clubs have changed last year and will be recommending handicap change where I sail the boat. 985 still will not make them happy as it is slower than the RS400's I race against.

What people do forget is the poor performance is light winds. Here I would prefer to be out on the B14.
3000 3611 Chaos
B14 790

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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 10 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by No. 5


They do, the V3000 sails off 985 (I think, I expect Medway Maniac will
correct me if I'm wrong) whereas the L3000 remains unadjusted.



Aha! Do they now..

Well messrs Dumb & Dumberer have kept that quiet, I shall enjoy breaking
that bit of news to the Race committee.

Now we're allegedly the biggest L3k club in the country, well with them
sailing that is, that doesn't count the Queen Mary L3k boneyard..
https://www.ease-distribution.com/
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No. 5 View Drop Down
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Posts: 115 		Post Options Post Options   Quote No. 5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 10 at 2:30pm

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by Doug.H

V3000 and laser 3000 to use the same number? 
Wilsonian members will not be happy with that! 


Then the sail committee need to take their heads out of the sand and make
some local adjustments just as the system intends them to do...

They do, the V3000 sails off 985 (I think, I expect Medway Maniac will correct me if I'm wrong) whereas the L3000 remains unadjusted.

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