New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Cirrus Icon Development
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Cirrus Icon Development

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 152>
Author
Guest View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 21 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 10 at 9:29pm

Originally posted by laser4000

Cough

59er

Cough...

ahem ... Tasar?

 

Back to Top
Slippery Jim View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 09
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 586
Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 10 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by laser4000

Cough59erCough...


Wot - a 59er rig on an NS14 hull????

Na, I love my 59er as she is. Don´t need a "stumpy" version. It´d
just submarine too easily anyway...

What about a 14ft version of a 12 footer? also ran - it´s called a 14
footer. Then there´s a 16 footer and, OMG, yes an 18 footer.

I don´t have the imagination to be able to figure out exactly what sort of
rig is going to go on that NS14 hull Mike. You´ll just have to surprise us
all.

Edited by Slippery Jim
Pass the skiff, man!
Back to Top
blaze720 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1635
Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 10 at 12:13am
Rick is more right there maybe - The Tasar was an earlier SMOD derivative of the NS14 from way back and its heritage is well known.   59er  .. can't see that myself unless you are saying the 59er (hull) was another near relative but the rig is way way off - different target owners as well - marketed as it was as the one for  'tired old' skiffers !!  (possibly the kiss of death in positioning  terms despite the obvious virtues of the boat itself) The evolution of the NS (and MG) development classes has led to some very capable hull forms in Oz in much the same way as the Merlin has found itself with a now largely stable and optimised hull shape this side of the world.  You can't improve some things very far once near optimum has been found.... so it is very natural to harness the experience of others and time.

Rigs (and maybe foils) - now there is much more room for a few tweaks there Slippery ... if you let your imagination loose beyond the NS limitations.  You will have to come along to the show for a peek ....
       
Mike L.
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 21 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 10 at 9:29am

I can see merit in someone trying to establish the NS14 class in Europe that could lead to a world wide fleet of fast easy to sail 2 person boats that could enjoy a future world championships.

I'm not to sure about another NS14 SMOD spin out in the UK .... perhaps you could call it Tasar2010

I am sure the 2010 version would be better than the Tasar but the difference not worth the splintering of an established class. Tasars get 30 -50 boats at the nats and the worlds in the UK next year will probably be 100 ... not much wrong there ... and they can be brought very cheap and old boats are still fast.

Back to Top
blaze720 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1635
Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 10 at 10:28am
Rick

I love the Tasar, have owned several and raced them for several seasons while offspring were happy to be crew.   Don't think I/we would make the ideal weight by a country mile now !   Might be amazing to those who know me but in pre-history I even used to crew an N12 as well but we are not targetting them either.  Icon will share much of the NS heritage and refinement like the Tasar but things have moved on massively in the last 35 years.  Imagine N12s or Merlins from the mid-70's - very different beasts to today.  We also want self-draining cockpits, a hull form that works equally well in the light stuff we get a lot of the time here in Europe as well as one that flies in real wind and a package that can comfortably carry a typcial club crew of todays weight.

The Tasar did not exactly split the NS class - and Icon with its very different sailplan will not divide any other class either.  All we did was start with a very developed platform and go in a different direction.  Blaze/Halo has a very different sailplan of course to the Int.14 hull shape that produced that platform - good hull shapes are simply good hull shapes.  Dinghy sailors seem to get very excited about hulls as if it was the only key factor  - I learnt that the rig /foils are at least as important if the hull form and weight is at all reasonable from a diversion into board racing about 20 years ago.  Hulls can be pretty and people drool over them but it is the foils and rig that should really get more of the credit.      

No we are not 'targetting' the Tasar - unfortunately due to botched marketing way back it never got the success in Europe it so clearly deserved.  To be sucessful today we have to interest those currently sailing a much wider range of boats.  This group includes those making those first tentative steps up from recreational sailing to club racing and more.  Icon will be accesible to them as well as to us racing anoraks.  Make it fast, make it easy to sail, make it work in all winds and on typical club courses and above all make it fun is the directive.  

It is not impossible for us to keep the hulls 'NS compliant'.  Note we are building in epoxy, aim to be lighter and will be making some layout changes.  However if we can keep compliant without compromising what we are trying to do in some way we will do so - it all depends on what the prospective customers want now.    As you know we are developing a different sailpan and are looking at the whole issue of foils and how that might affect the hull.  Rig and foils - up to potential owners now but we will offer them several choices that they can try - my preference is simplicity and 2-sail though but you have to develop what people really want.  That programme is running now and an early (2-sail) version may be shown at the Dinghy Show.  The NS (or MG) has no foothold in Europe and to keep costs very affordable we will therefore be fixing hull form whatever sailplan is involved and definately going down the SMOD route.  

Mike L.

PS - no more for a bit now  .... keyboard stuff will not get things done ! 



Back to Top
Slippery Jim View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 09
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 586
Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 10 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Guest#260

I can see merit in someone trying to establish
the NS14 class in Europe that could lead to a world wide fleet of fast easy
to sail 2 person boats that could enjoy a future world championships.


I'm not to sure about another NS14 SMOD spin out in the UK ....
perhaps you could call it Tasar2010


I am sure the 2010 version would be better than the Tasar but the
difference not worth the splintering of an established class. Tasars get 30
-50 boats at the nats and the worlds in the UK next year will probably be
100 ... not much wrong there ... and they can be brought very cheap and
old boats are still fast.



I can´t see it happening that the Tasar gets swamped by an emergent
NS14-like class either.

Back to the subject of rig, I´d tend not to have a wing mast, since you
loose the automatic response in gusts (at least with the diamond
spreader setup). The only reason it was developed was to increase the sail
efficiency and thus reduce the sail area, making it easier to manage.

Now it´s clear that manual rig adjustment alone - as in the NS14, Tasar
etc, with wing masts - just doesn´t use the gust wind efficiently above
the design wind.   

I think we have moved on from the idea of manually changing sail profile
in anticipation of a gust/lull - it just isn´t possible in the time available.
Nowadays small diameter carbon masts with their flexibility enable fast
rig gust responses, with minimal aerodynamic losses (just increase sail
top and leach size to solve that problem).

Crews can spend more time looking out of the boat and less time pulling
on bits of string and it leads to much more enjoyable, tactical sailing. Just
set the rig up for the average wind on the day and get out there.

Edited by Slippery Jim
Pass the skiff, man!
Back to Top
Norbert View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 351
Post Options Post Options   Quote Norbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 10 at 10:54am
Jim as our resident German member have you come across the
Flight 4.3? Guess it will have been quite well developed
by Andrew Landenberger, but as with the 59er, great boats
do not always turn into great classes.

Working solely on what I've read here it looks like this
Icon thing will be a direct and exact (? ) copy.
Back to Top
Slippery Jim View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 09
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 586
Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 10 at 11:10am
Originally posted by Norbert

Jim as our resident German member have you come
across the
Flight 4.3? Guess it will have been quite well developed
by Andrew Landenberger, but as with the 59er, great boats
do not always turn into great classes.

Working solely on what I've read here it looks like this
Icon thing will be a direct and exact (? ) copy.


My fear too... There are a limited number of avenues available. Let´s see at
the Boat Show.
Pass the skiff, man!
Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2957
Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 10 at 11:55am

Lovely looking hull, but I don't understand the target market.

Two sail racing needs to be class based imho. In the average handicap fleet, this boat will do very well upwind then be lost downwind against boats with kites.

If it's going to sprout a kite, let's say so from the start.

If you're a serious racer, you'll want some sort of level racing, so it becomes the old 'critical mass' scenario. I'd love to race one, but only if half a dozen others were in my club to race against.

And the dagger board is a serious minus. So many of us sail where running aground happens. I get annoyed when I take the filler off the tip of my RS400 plate. I once crewed an RS800 and we did £800 worth of damage running aground upwind. For that I can live with new slot tapes every 2 years, and as it's raced one design, I'll live with inability to sail with a partly raised daggerboard.

What would I like to see in a new class?

Something like an RS400 or Merlin, built to a very high quality but light weight.

Let's say no more than 50kg for a robust hull that will be competitive after 20 years of club sailing.

Trouble is, when boats get that light you start to need weight equalisation to keep the racing reasonably level...

Back to Top
Slippery Jim View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 09
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 586
Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 10 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Lovely looking hull, but I don't understand the
target market.


Two sail racing needs to be class based imho. In the average handicap
fleet, this boat will do very well upwind then be lost downwind against
boats with kites.


If it's going to sprout a kite, let's say so from the start.


If you're a serious racer, you'll want some sort of level racing, so it
becomes the old 'critical mass' scenario. I'd love to race one, but only if
half a dozen others were in my club to race against.


And the dagger board is a serious minus. So many of us sail where
running aground happens. I get annoyed when I take the filler off the tip
of my RS400 plate. I once crewed an RS800 and we did £800 worth of
damage running aground upwind. For that I can live with new slot tapes
every 2 years, and as it's raced one design, I'll live with inability to sail
with a partly raised daggerboard.


What would I like to see in a new class?


Something like an RS400 or Merlin, built to a very high quality but light
weight.


Let's say no more than 50kg for a robust hull that will be competitive
after 20 years of club sailing.


Trouble is, when boats get that light you start to need weight
equalisation to keep the racing reasonably level...



Re asymmetric kites, they only work really well when the conditions are
not marginal. MG and Co have problems, due to non-linear drag curves
and average crew weights. To make a Manley Graduate go when the
conditions are marginal, you need a crew eight of around 70 Kg, i.e. not
much. Look at Frank Bethwaite´s work on the Tasar as an example.

The NS14 hull - the latest designs - form the basis of the MG. Non-linear
drag curve = no point in using the kite unless you want to blow
downwind on a double-luff spinnaker (which is allowed in the MG)

The critical ratios for all boats are:
displacement: sail area: wetted surface area.
Minimum planing speed: sail area: all up weight.
High winds: sail carrying power (including righting moment):total weight
and the way the rig responds in gusts.
It goes without saying that without considering all things together, you´ll
get a boat which will under-perform in some conditions.

From Frank Bethwaite´s Higher Performance Sailing.

Re. dagger boards: I´ll take the risk of max performance/enjoyment
against running aground any day :
Pass the skiff, man!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 152>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy