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Cirrus Icon Development |
Post Reply | Page <1 89101112 152> |
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Russell Moore
Newbie Joined: 05 Dec 07 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 20 |
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Topic: Cirrus Icon Development Posted: 08 Feb 10 at 11:47pm |
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The promotion for the 59er was pathetic. Even here in Sydney, Aus, I couldn't get the Bethwaite's to come to our club and give us a chance to test sail the boat. And we are only 30km away from their factory! Will the Icon or the NS14 be a success in the UK? I certainly would hope so, as I have been sailing NSs for over fourteen years here in Australia, and I was recently the national measurer for the class. Pound for pound, I believe the NS to be one of the best boats of its type around. To promote a class you need a dedicated group of enthusiasts who will take the boat/s to the clubs and give people free access to test sail them. This is exactly how the NS got its start in the early '60s here in Australia, two boats were taken around the Sydney and country clubs and given to the locals to sail in their club races. From there the rest is history as they say, and it became a very popular class on our inland waterways, yes we do have some! If you have a good product, selling at a reasonable price, you will be well on your way to establishing a new class. Once established, let the sailors run the class, as this will give owners a feeling of 'being' the class.
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1973
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blaze720
Really should get out more Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 08 Feb 10 at 11:50pm | |
The Tasar should have succeeded - in the 70's - but in the 70's it was mishandled by the builder in Europe and misunderstood generally. It was and is brilliant in the right conditions as those of us who have raced them know. If it blew 20kn everyday here and we always sailed on open waters there would have been little to challenge it in either handling or performance in its category. Note ... that it evolved and was developed out of the NS's of the day.
The NSs continued to develop in the inteveening 35 years and while they are even more potent in a blow they are now very effective indeed in lighter conditions - in much the same way as N12s have developed and perform here - do not bet against a modern N12 offwind in light conditions on PN btw ! . Icon is a simple concept - we are taking the now relatively stable NS hull form, with its broader wind capability (and it can carry weight better as well ) and optimising and enlarging the rig for the market and sailing waters we find here (and elsewhere) with larger crews and highly variable wind conditions. Unlike the 'big' dinghy builders we have to be very very sure that the product is right and I do not mean just for the UK. As with Blaze we will seek to work with others overseas to build hulls and address other markets. Our hunch is that many people really will now want to try the boat out of sheer curiosity at first given the NS background and reputation and as with our other projects enough will put their 'hard earned' behind it to move things forward. There will not be too much hype or advertising from Cirrus but we will try hard to get you to try it. If you prefer something else afterwards well fine but it will get you thinking for sure ... Many years ago when I raced boards the first camber induced sails could only be used for racing under the then rules if they were significantly smaller than the 'soft' sails then standard. Despite their size they were a shock to all who tried them at first - The Icon concept is not as revolutionary in any one respect but it does pull together a number of developments that have quietly been proven and refined elsewhere over a very long time. Together these features, lightness and refinement makes the overall package very distinctive - there was no point in another 'me-too' boat. We really do hope you like it - so get in touch and try it after the Dinghy Show. Mike L. |
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mongrel
Far too distracted from work Joined: 27 Aug 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 304 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Feb 10 at 7:13am | |
That hull isn't going to carry weight well, have a look at pictures of NS14 sailing, the crews are probably 125kg all up. Then when you reduce the weight of a hull, generally the most efficient crew weights come down a bit more. It might have big sails, but whilst the hull is displacement sailing (most of the time) the lightweights will leave everyone else for dead. I think the concept is good, but that NS hull is too small to carry to average anglo-saxons! |
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Slippery Jim
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Nov 09 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 586 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Feb 10 at 7:24am | |
Edited by Slippery Jim |
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Pass the skiff, man!
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Slippery Jim
Really should get out more Joined: 24 Nov 09 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 586 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Feb 10 at 7:32am | |
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Pass the skiff, man!
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RS400atC
Really should get out more Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Feb 10 at 7:59am | |
The RS200 was designed as a TUB (Trade Union Boat-one man, one sail). Pretend assymetric tacked on as a last minute marketing panic. They have to ban goosewinging to keep the image. Its success is about the quality of the racing rather than the quality of the boat. Strict OD, critical mass and the right marketing. It delivers great OD racing, to a good spectrum of people. And I guess, at the time there was a bit of a gap with the 400 perceived as being biased towards heavier people. Just a shame that Quality Control issues are spoiling the party for some. |
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getafix
Really should get out more Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Feb 10 at 12:59pm | |
BIG over simpication there dude ... the thrust of your argument was (IMO) that development classes plateau because sailors buy into the 'hot combination' more often than take the risky path of new development, but as Jo Richards "Dead Cat Bounce" ably demonstrates, development classes leave room for free thinking like SMODS or ODs do not, I'd like to see some radical thinking in the Merlins, but the high cost of entry is going to put all but the most committed <barrister, lawyer, consultant surgeons or merchant-$ankers) off "taking a punt" in the way the class evolved so much in the 60's, 70's & 80's |
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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one
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skslr
Posting king Joined: 24 Jul 06 Location: Germany Online Status: Offline Posts: 138 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Feb 10 at 2:40pm | |
Hmmm... RS800 Twin wire Racks Rigg / righting moment ratio optimized for mid / high windspeeds Hull optimized for mid / high windspeeds Asym. Kite
59er No wires No racks Rigg /righting moment ratio optimized for low / mid windspeeds Hull targeted at whole wind range, roll tacking etc. Asym. Kite The RS800 suffers on small sailing waters due to hull shape and the drawbacks of both crew trapezing from racks, that would not change by taking the kite away. The 59er kite (being huge compared to the righting moment) requires some space to benefit from it but what other design parameters would be a disadvantage inland if you would take the kite away? Let's say you replace the self-tacking jib by a jib with some kind of pole. I am not saying that the 59ers necessarily should go that way! Instead I am just wondering if the base concept of the 59er hull maybe more appropriate than a base concept where principal dimensions are fixed on old classrules. The latter approach kind of neglects effects like people becoming taller in general. Being taller than 1,8 m is already quite common for males. I believe you need more than 14 foot for a balanced design that covers this trend without requiring kids as crew. Or the other way round: There are already too many designs out there that target 130 kg and do not take 150 kg well. Not sure there is much value in adding another one.
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Feb 10 at 3:09pm | |
You could argue that the 59er demonstrates that if you make a boat for the big boys they won't come, especially as there's a perception that one of the things that stuffed the boat was owners putting a wire on to make it more suitable for lighter crews. |
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Guests
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Feb 10 at 3:38pm | |
The comparison to a kiteless 59er is a valid one I think, and a good way of describing the concept. Personally I believe it is the large kite as much as the poor marketing that did for it (and perhaps the whole rig needs an overly active, experienced sailing style). The hull looks very nice though. I have actually thought about using the 59er hull as a the base for a boat like this in the past. However, the Flight hull is much more suitable. There are numerous designs which show that 14ft is plenty big enough for a boat. Most NS14s are sailed with a crew weight of about 130kg, but that is because that is all the small sails need, not because the hull can not take more weight. There are perhaps some NS designs that can't (I dunno), but I can assure you that the Flight hull takes me (90kg+) and my wife with no problems. Having previously owned a RS200 I can confirm that it takes our weight - and weight distribution - much better than that did. Anyway, I'd invite you all down to have a look at it at the Dinghy Show, and if the idea of a modern two sail boat appeals, give it a try! |
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