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alstorer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 09 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by tack'ho

Bu**er. agreeing with the grumpy one again.  The way Una masts are built now'a'days is extremely complex (laser rubbish exempting.. ). Ask the guys at tropical who built Shirleys Europe mast if they think a lack of stays equates to a lack of complexity.

Ah, but that's a case of trying to build something to the rules- I would bet the farm that the Europe class went (at the time of founding) with an unstayed mast for simplicity, and the same goes for the Finn. That they've developed to be complex pieces of engineering is entirely another matter.

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 09 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by alstorer

I would bet the farm that the Europe class went (at the time of founding) with an unstayed mast for simplicity


You just lost the farm... That was the most popular style of rig in the Internationals at the time, so the Europes stayed as they were when they froze development.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 09 at 5:06pm

But what about when it comes to doing things like sailing by the lee?

The unstayed rif surley has the upper hand? (sorry prahaps I should have mentioned I was refering primarily to the singlehander)

Anyway.

Interesting replies.

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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 09 at 8:18am

You can sail a stayed rig by the lee but it is more difficult and not as effective (you need to let all the kicker off, drop the rig tension back to allow the leach to twist out far enough).

Personally I think it give an unstayed slower boat a poten weapon downwind having the flexibility to go by the lee rather than gybe. It can be used to good effect against 'faster' boats when trying to gain a tactical advantage.

Paul
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Mark Jardine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mark Jardine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 09 at 9:07am
Originally posted by m_liddell

When you start adding jibs, traps and spinnakers (especially mast head) and bigger mains an unstayed mast just isn't an option.


Anyone remember Krazy K-Yote Two from the 1999 Admiral's Cup?



This boat caused a massive stir and when re-rated led to the French team withdrawing from the 1999 Admiral's Cup. Clicky
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 09 at 9:30am

Sailing by the lee is very straightforward with many stayed classes.  If the sail has a reasonable amout of roach as we have on hte Blaze it is very fast and the most practical way down course in cetain conditioons.  You simply ease the kicker and the top of the sail,  supported by the full length top battens goes forward.   

A few years back we were doing this in the Blaze class anyway but then Steve Cockerill raced with us and showed exactly how it should be done in waves.  Just a variation of the Laser approach really and very effective with a longer mast and modern sails - and great fun.   

Generally stayed masts offer a very great deal of flexibility.  I would also argue that they have a greater range of potential adjustment than unstayed to suit all from relative lightweights to relative heavies.  They also allow a very much slimmer and lighter mast section to be used all other things being equal.   Combined with a switch to carbon there are very major gains by switching from a standard alloy 'teardrop' mast such as on the Blaze to a slimline round carbon section with Halo.  These efficiency gains are possibly equal to or maybe even exceed the performance gain of the larger sail of Halo in isolation (with even greater supported roach btw).  I do not think we could do anything like the same thing with an unstayed stick.

As has been said already stayed rigs are fairly universal with performance classes carrying more than one sail or a trapeze.  D1 excepted ?

Unstayed masts are great for certain classes but not all and the real performance ones can be rather pricey - a factor that is also difficult to ignore.

Blaze720

 

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tack'ho View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tack'ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 09 at 10:07am

Whilst I don't contend that stayed mast are in any way inferior or less adjustable, may I suggest you do a bit of background research on the new Byte CII rig.  It really is a feat of engineering, which is enormously adjustable, and acts effectively as a wing mast as is rotates in the mast foot.  Now, a blank peice of paper with a unstayed shaped mast section designed to be controlled in the same manner as the Byte rig on a hull specifically designed for it......and if you can make it aimed at 70kg sailors.....that I would like to see.

I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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Daniel Holman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 09 at 10:42am
Originally posted by tack'ho

....... Now, a blank peice of paper with a unstayed shaped mast section designed to be controlled in the same manner as the Byte rig on a hull specifically designed for it......and if you can make it aimed at 70kg sailors.....that I would like to see.

The paper was particularly blank. Prob more a 75- 80kg person's boat right now, but smaller and bigger versions of the rig in the pipeline...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 09 at 10:56am
An un stayed mast will start to bend off to leeward at deck level, spilling power, in the Moths with the quite modest sail area for the righting moment keeping the rig vertical up to the hounds is probably quite an advantage in terms of power, also in terms of weight.
If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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Steve411 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve411 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 09 at 11:37am

sbolland by you.

Another well-engineered unstayed rig. The main thing is that kicker tension is the key sail control as kicker tension, mast bend, sail fullness and leech tension are inextricably linked. You can't have a tight leech for pointing without flattening the sail off for example.

Downwing the unstayed rig makes life interesting as gusts bend the mast forward making nosedives more likely. Unlike stayed masts we use kicker tension to depower downwind (bend the mast and therefore flatten the sail) whereas it's more normal with a stayed rig to blow the kicker downwind (on boats with kites at least) to depower.

Pic by www.malcolmlewinphotography.co.uk

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