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Development = faster?

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 04 at 11:15am
Originally posted by ChrisJ

Average lap times involves having the same start and finish line (so the laps are all the same length). Some clubs like to set a beating start at the beginning of the beat, and a finish at the end of the beat. Having a finish line that is different to the start line prevents the average lap-timed races.


Nope, there are ways round that. Basically you have to time everyone through the finish line on the first lap and you have to make sure there are plenty of laps.

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 04 at 11:22am
[QUOTE=Scooby_simon]



so if you are the same sail area, I assume you have a smaller Main ?



Nope, its just that the 400 hull shape means that its got a major [lack of] top speed problem, whereas the 4 Tonner sticks in the light 'cause its got plenty of wetted area.

That sort of thing is why a measurement handicap system can't work for dinghies. Cats are really more linear in performance so its a much simpler problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 04 at 7:44am

Sorry to add to this one so long after the rest of the discussion...but on the original point about development classes PYs being wrong and slow to change...

Look at the merlins, how big is the fleet, how long do the boats last and how often do the rules change?  If you have a lot of old boats sailing because they last a long time, and the rules don't change that frequently, irrespective of how many good people compete on PY or do the Open circuit, you aren't going to see much change in the PY because there just aren't enough new boats around to make a significant difference.  And if most of the class is in older boats, why should they have to try to sail to a new, lower, handicap.

Cherubs would be different - there are far fewer of them, but after a major rule change in 1997, the PY only started dropping significantly in 2001, but it is still dropping as more new rules boats are built and more older boats are converted.  (maybe this is the best guide for the need for an updating inthe rules - once the PY has been stable for 2 years after the last rule change, then it is time to consider the next step...)

I must admit I like helm handicap (or yardstick systems) in parallel with boat handicaps as this takes into account both the skill of the helm and the suitability of the class the water you are sailing on.  It is also good for the newcomers as they then have an aim to improve their personal handicap by 5 points over the season or whatever...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 04 at 1:37pm

In the Cherub because it is a small class development can be slow. The rules changed in 97 it took til 98 for the existing boats to be converted to the new rig plan, then 99 to 2000  for the first new hulls to be built(When building in your spare time it can not be done quickly). It can then take a year or so to get the new boats working properly and actualy sailing to their potential.

 

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Blobby View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 04 at 12:32am

I agree completely - and that's true in all development classes though. 

My point was how quickly the Cherub PY has changed in comparison to other development classes because getting 4 or 5 new boats out there means that probably 30% of the fleet are bang up to date.  In the Merlins, for example, you would need to have more like 50 new boats built to have the same impact, and as far as I know they aren't building Merlins that fast (partly because the boats last a long time)

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 04 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Blobby

In the Merlins, for example, you would need to have more like 50 new boats built to have the same impact



I think its more to the point that the Merlin is in a stable design space. It seems to me that the PY hasn't greatly changed for a very long time because the design within the rule was largely stabilised a long time ago and changes are largely small and incremental. To this outsider Merlins of today don't look obviously different to those of 15 years ago in the way that say Moths do.

Don't forget that 3.6 seconds in an hour improvement in boat speed is plenty for winning races, but its only equivalent to a point on the yardstick.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 04 at 1:43pm

The rule change in 97 for the cherubs made a significant difference in the boat. The increase in sail area moved the point where the boat starts to plane down the wind range. The change in the hull restrictions meant that you could have a much narrower hull on the waterline and you could move the widest point to a more efficient position further back in the boat.

For the old boats with modified rigs you get earlier planing and in a 12ft boat planing is the key to performance. For the new boats you also get a light winds improvement, however they do take some time to learn to sail.

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martin370 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote martin370 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 04 at 5:43pm

Hi.

Thought I'd join in.  What's your point with the Stratos handicap?  My understanding was that it was originally 1095 but has now come down to 1083.  Are you saying it's too low or too high?

Martin

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wave Rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 04 at 7:02pm
Hi sorry not answering ur question bt are laser stratos's fast ??????
           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hurricane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 04 at 7:11pm

one word

NO

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