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Development = faster?

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Garry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 04 at 2:20pm

As well as the low return causing problems for achieving better average handicaps.  There is a fundemental problem if the handicap spread is too great.  The fast boats sail a different race in different conditions to the medium and slow.  Not only that summer evening series are often dogged with the wind dying - the fast boats have finished leaving the slower handicaps bobbing about in hardly any breeze.   There are corrections for all these things but they would be too complicated for the average club OOD to manage fairly, after all sometimes just timing the start and getting the flags up in the right order is an achievement.

Class racing is best, but I'd settle for any racing - my current challenge isn't to come first but simply get mine and my son's act together sufficiently to beat a couple of very good Ent sailors at our club on the water (even though my handicap is faster).  I had great satisfaction the other week sailing with one of our girls (who hardly ever goes out) when we beat one of the club's top laser sailors to the windward mark on the first beat (same Hcap under the old numbers).  Of course it all went downhill from there and at a minute or so to hoist the spinnaker we were never going to excel.  But we enjoyed it.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 04 at 4:42pm

>>summer evening series are often dogged with the wind dying - the fast boats have finished leaving the slower handicaps bobbing about in hardly any breeze

 

As one of the faster classes at our club (RS400 at Burghfield), I wish that would happen!!

Instead we have a pursuit race: So the slower boats start in a lovely breeze, and we plane up and down near the start line. By the time we start, the wind is dropping and we can't get near them.  But it is much better that way around, than having the younger people sailing the slower boats and getting stranded out on the lake trying to cross the finish line. At least in a pursuit finish the finish line can be motored back through the fleet rather than having to wait.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote *GM* Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 04 at 6:56pm

Why not try average lap races with shorter laps?  That way the fast boats don't have to be the first to finish and the slow boats the last.  Unless it's really light and you can only get one lap....

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redback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 04 at 6:01pm
We use average lap racing at BBSC.  It works well, at 75 minutes any boat crossing the line is finished (be it fast or slow).  We pump the finish times and number of laps into the computer and bingo we have a list of positions.  All boats therefore will finish on their current lap.  Which means they all sail in much the same wind.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 04 at 1:20pm
Average lap times involves having the same start and finish line (so the laps are all the same length). Some clubs like to set a beating start at the beginning of the beat, and a finish at the end of the beat. Having a finish line that is different to the start line prevents the average lap-timed races.
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Nick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 04 at 11:18pm

The previous discussion seemed to be mostly around the accuracy of the PY system; one point I didn't see raised was that the PY system does not take into account wind strength or course, instead it relies on a series being long enougth to average the results so a boat is not favoured by these conditions. This does not always happen, particularly on short events.

Its my belief that a computer based program could be developed which could be used to predict a handicap of a boat based on key factors such as sail size, hull weight etc. This should eliminate the inaccuracies with the current returns based system (discussed previously) and could even take into account variable factors such as wind strength, course and helm/crew weight.

Unfortunately, I don't see any evidence that the RYA has sufficient interest in handicap racing to investigate this; if I'm correct in this observation its a great shame as unfair handicaps can kill interest in racing. It must be a common experience to have sailed well only to find out your corrected position is not as good as expected and visa versa (although this doesn't seem to happen as often).

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 04 at 12:20pm

We cat sailors have all but given up on PY as it is a return based system which (we feel) cannot keep up with the rapidly changing cat world).

 

We uswe measurement based systems :

Texel or SCHRS :

http://www.texelrating.knwv.nl

http://www.schrs.com/

 

 

 

 

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redback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 04 at 9:46pm

I followed your schrs link.  Nice idea but it doesn't take into account the wind strength, probably not worth the agro. 

I race a Laser 4000 against RS400s.  They are about the same weight, length and sail area.  We have a bigger gennaker and a trapeze and a PY about 4.5% lower.  In strong steady winds we beat them, in light or flukey winds they beat us.  Generally they win more often than we do - but we have more fun.  I wouldn't want to win more often - they might pack up and go home!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 04 at 10:33pm

so if you are the same sail area, I assume you have a smaller Main ?

That ma explain part of the difference in the 'ffluky stuff' as they have more sail up more of the time, but because it is fluky, you cannot plane or use the Big Kite grunt so much 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 04 at 11:20pm

They have a very tiny bit larger main but the real difference is the hull shape.  They have much more rocker giving them better displacement sailing performance.  Whereas the 4000 has much straighter hull, designed for planing at the detriment of low speed performance.

I notice the texel rule gives only a 3% correction for centreboards - that's amazing - you'd think they'd make a bigger difference.



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