New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Development = faster?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Development = faster?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>
Author
Javelin View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 01 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18
Post Options Post Options   Quote Javelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Development = faster?
    Posted: 01 Apr 04 at 2:56am

So tell me, over the last five or six years the Merlin Rocket has seen the addition of Mylar sails, Carbon masts, Mylar foredecks and even a carbon boat costing over £20k plus god knows how many other developments and how much faster is the Merlin?

Well according to the handicap, it’s made no difference at all.

 

In 1999 the handicap was 1024 and guess what, it still is. 

 

There just has to be some money changing hands somewhere…..

Back to Top
Adoo View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 64
Post Options Post Options   Quote Adoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 04 at 9:40am

Handicap of 1024??? Under what system?

PY? Actually PY is not a handicap, its a yardstick - the difference is huge, I'm not being pedantic.

Handicap involves measuring the boat and trying to figure our how fast it sails. Yardstick uses results from previous races, know performance against a set group of regularly sailed dinghys (yardsticks). This varies as boats become faster or slower relative to the other boats they race against.

If the Merlin Rocket's performance has changed, and its PN (Portsmouth Number) has not changed over the last 5 years, it is for the following reasons;

1) There are not enough return forms being sent in from clubs where Merlin Rockets are being sailed, and / or

2) Not enough Merlin Rockets are being raced under PY.

Javelin, talk to your sailing secretary - or whoever sets up the yardstick racing in your club. If you have a gripe, take it to them, they can use the system to give fair racing at your club, and when they return the data to the RYA, this will get noted into the database, and a national trend will occur, presumably resulting in the correct change in PN for the Merlin Rocket.

But remember, the sailing sec needs to remain impartial. They cant give all the prizes to the person who buys them the most beer....

Better to be overpowered in the gusts than underpowered in the lulls!
Back to Top
Alex View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 17 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6
Post Options Post Options   Quote Alex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 04 at 10:30am

Mr Javelin, I feel I have to correct you on some of your figures. The Merlin that I assume you are reffering to did not cost 20k and neither is it made of carbon. No Merlins are 100% made from carbon, only on the decks, bouyancy tank and thwart is carbon allowed to be used. The cost of the boats themselves have not increased, it is the introduction of higher technology and quality kit that goes on them such as carbon rig, carbon foils countless fittings and kevlar/mylar sails that push the perceived cost up.

The advantage of this is that we are at a stage in the class where you can buy a 6 year old second hand plastic boat and have exactly the same boat speed as a brand new one. This has resulted in seriously close racing in the fleet where it is very difficult to split the top 20 sailors.

Finally in respect to our PY I do agree that it is currently loaded in our favour, however, we have recently introduced larger spinnys that have not yet generated a full years results for the RYA to use to readjust our yardstick, no doubt it will go down soon enough.

Back to Top
Pierre View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 15 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1517
Post Options Post Options   Quote Pierre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 04 at 11:21am
Aha!!! So Mr Javelin does have a point then.
Back to Top
Alex View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 17 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6
Post Options Post Options   Quote Alex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 04 at 12:09pm

Of course Mr Javelin 'Mike' has a point regarding the PY.

It is an inherent problem with any development class that there will be a time lag between the actual PY and realistic PY number. The Int14 has exactly the same problem, for instance this year J Fawcett and D Bosnia won the Bloody Mary, a couple of weeks later they entered another pursuit race Steve Nicholson or Tiger Trophy, can't remember which, but found the Int14 PY had been dropped significantly.

I suppose development classes do not help themselves, specifically Merlins, N12s and Int14s in that the top boats regularly attend their own class traveller series, hence as 'Adoo' pointed out there is not much data for the RYA to use to readjust the PYs. 

Back to Top
Ent Man View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 29 Mar 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 32
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ent Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 04 at 12:13pm
Is that why the Merlins did exceptionally well in the Bloody Mary then? Their starting time not reflecting their actual improved performance.
Campaign for longer weekends and therefore more sailing!
Back to Top
Alex View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 17 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6
Post Options Post Options   Quote Alex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 04 at 12:53pm

Possibly may have had a marginal effect but not much, also the course with the long flukey run helped us compared to asymetricals.

Merlins only appeared to do well because it was the top lot that turned up. Phil King who has been all conquering in the fleet for some years, Dave Winder who knows a thing or two about Merlins, or atleast I hope he does seeing as builds most of them, William Warren who has clearly picked up a few pointers from his father Al Warren over the years and Pat Blake of past FD fame. Think if you put any of these guys in a well sorted boat they would do pretty well.

Back to Top
3600Matrix View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 01 Apr 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 14
Post Options Post Options   Quote 3600Matrix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 04 at 3:29pm

Hello,

Firstly I would like to dispell the myth that Mr Javelin Man has fallen pray to that the Merlin is an overexpensive dinghy. I bought my boat second hand a year ago (it was then a year old) for less than a new RS400. Not bad value for money considering for that money you get a full Carbon Raking rig and all the Kit!

Also as Alex has quite rightly said Carbon is not allowed in the hull. All that has happened is as a class we have moved with the times and have embraced new development and as such we are still at the forfront of UK dinghy development and not stuck in a time warp afraid of what the future might hold.

My boat was made by Winder boats who are renound for making boats that are exceedingly quick and great quality. Just look at the fireball fleet. My boat now is about 2.5 years old and in the right hands could easily win the nationals, it is still as fast as any boat out there it is just the helm that is not.

Through controlled development we now have one of the best two man hiking boats on the market, that is one of the most versatile in terms of conditions and locations it can be sailed in. It is because of design changes and kit development that means the merlin can be sailed closer to its maximum potential in all weathers more than many other classes. They are a surprisingly easy boat to sail relative to their performance.

To Sumarise there is a thriving second hand market for boats that are certainly not off the pace and out classed nor are they overexpensive when you consider the equiptment you get and the great class history that comes with it. The Social side is one of the best I have experienced. Some of the finest dinghy sailors in the country have recently started campaigning Merlins e.g Tom Stewart from P&B Sails and N12 fame and Richard Estaugh of Speed Sails and Enterprise fame, this in itself must surely tell you something.

The attendance at events is not bad either with annually over 100 boats turning up fo Merlin Rocket week in Salcombe and are Nationals are going from strength to strength with over 80 expected at Looe this year.

I love my Merlin and Javelin if you ever want to come and have a play in one our very reasonably priced Rocket Ships just turn up to one of the Silver Tiller events and I am sure you will be surprised by how helpfull Merlin Sailors can be.

Good Sailing.

Back to Top
Dandy View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 01 Apr 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1
Post Options Post Options   Quote Dandy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 04 at 5:11pm

Hi,

Just a quick note with some thoughts.

1. I completely agree with Mr Javelin on merlin prices. If you wanted to buy my merlin it would cost you no less than 35,000 (I bet I'd sell it for about 6,500 to a normal punter but if you believe everything you hear, get your check book ready). It is a well used but fully functioning Winder ship with all the gear. Please don't forget it's obviously a significant upgrade from a Javelin for example. (Sorry I just couldn't resist!! Just pulling your leg)

2. So what anyway if this merlin in question did cost 20k. I think part of the attraction is that this is a development class. The guy who ownes the boat is clearly a very very very rich man - not the sort of guy seen driving something like a .. Renault!!  As a friend once said "Pioneers are the ones with arrows in front!" It would cost a lot more too if he did decide to use gold instead of lead, but he could do that if he wanted and if his mum didn't need all those fillings.

3. My dad, my uncle, and two fiends each knocked new ones up in their garages for about 4,000. (Don't tell their wifes!) My dad even designed his own special breed of merlin with a pencil whilst on the throne..

4. If you want to remain buying off the shelf merlins, call Winders. If you want to go for super natural ones call Ghostbusters (AKA Linton, Lawrie Smart or Kevin Driver). Whatever you buy you can still tweak anyway. Merlins have recently been chopped in half, modified and stuck back together. You have to find this all interesting..  

5. Lets not quabble about PY's. It's all a bit dull and if you can't beat them, please do join in. My dad will happily lend you his boat design plans as a welcome!!!  

Regards,

Dandy

 

 

Back to Top
Javelin View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 01 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 18
Post Options Post Options   Quote Javelin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 04 at 5:23pm

I think I need to clarify my initial point,

I have nothing against the Merlin as a racing dinghy, other than the thought of hiking out fills me with dread compared to having my crew, out of the way on the end of a wire.

My real beef is with the wholly inaccurate yardstick that the Merlin and some other classes sail to.
I fully accept that it depends on returns from the clubs and that the Merlin Class is in no way responsible for the resulting published number.
However the Merlin is a development class.
It therefore is to be expected that developments will be made.
Assuming that many, if not all developments will aid performance it would follow that a development class PY would change more often than a one-design.

The conclusion is that despite all the developments, no significant improvement in speed as been found in the Merlin in the last five years.
Sorry, after sailing at joint events with the Merlin’s over the last few years
”I don’t believe it!”
What has made things worse recently is the manufacturer supplied PY’s like the Stratos whose PY is just a joke.
I understand that the published number is officially a “guideline” and the OOD is encouraged to adapt the number to fit in with local conditions etc but I have heard of very few OOD’s who have had the guts to do this.
Perhaps the solution is to make people more aware that the OOD has this power and for the RYA to develop a location formula to aid in adjusting the PY to meet local conditions.


Example for say the Flying Dutchman;
Sea venue -3 points
Inland Large venue -1point
Inland small venue +1point

River venue +3points  

If this was published as an official guide to PY adjustment it would take the pressure off the OOD and maybe we could sail on a more level basis.    
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy