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Olympic Classes for 2012 |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
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Topic: Olympic Classes for 2012 Posted: 14 Nov 08 at 10:31pm |
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Hmm, good point... Digs out spreadsheet. The 49er was designed in 2005. The Torbole 49er trials were September 1996. The boat was selected at the November 1996 ISAF Conference. In the 1996 Racing classes review the 49er claimed 110 boats sold for latest sail number 120, and 14 boats at the UK Champs. In 1997 they claimed 390 sold for latest sail number 506, and 78 boats at the combined UK/European Champs. In 1998 they claimed 100 sold, latest number 570 and 38 at the UK Champs. The 29erXX was designed in 2005. The Hyeres trials the 29erXX attended were May 2007. In 2006 it didn't feature in the RCR. In 2007 it had no numbers in the RCR. In 2008 there are no stated sail numbers or sales figures, just a comment that no championships were held. I'm somewhat staggered by just how big the disparity is! Edited by JimC |
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G.R.F.
Really should get out more Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Nov 08 at 10:33pm | |
So now following that common sense decision, what would it take and
please think out of the box here for a moment, to bring the 470 up to speed with maybe an asymmetric rig or an Alto style makeover. As far as I see it as an objective outsider, newishcomer, it's a sound hull but under powered in light winds by modern standard, but wth a good planing and sea going hull that could stand a modern well managed rig upgrade. So would the class have to agree? Unlikely classes never agree to change. How could it be forced upon them for a degree of futureproofing..? |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Nov 08 at 10:40pm | |
Upgrading the 470 rig would be a pretty unwise thing to do. Experience in the development classes suggests asymmetric kites don't work unless they are a *lot* bigger than conventionals and the hull is an all out planing one. And extra sail area seems to have amazingly little effect on performance.
IMHO what the 470 needs more than anything else is a set of hull construction rule changes so they can be bult cheaper, lighter and with more longevity. |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Nov 08 at 11:33pm | |
There was a question earlier about how many symmetric classes had been designed recently. Answer, none (apart from the MRX, which is probebly a good example of why not). There are big fleets of established Symmetric classes, which do the job very well. Not only would it be very hard to get a toehold in such a market, but it is unlikely any new boat would be a better all round performer than those already out there. As for turning the 470 into a wannabee skiff...why? The hull shape is designed around the rig it has. Even the XX would do a better job. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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G.R.F.
Really should get out more Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 14 Nov 08 at 11:58pm | |
Hmm I'm inclined to disagree, but then I would.
A 470 hull does plane. It also has 'displacement' qualities which give good light wind performance. As far as I see, the assym rig forces the "dog legging" of downwind courses and obvious opportunity to get the angles and shifts wrong. Coming as I do from a one design back ground where both options are open, i.e sail high and fast or low and deep, dead run even on the run section of a triangle sausage setup, indeed it was probably us lot (Racing Sailboards)that opened up the dual scenario but i don't know that for sure. Now the way a 470 is currently set up, you wouldn't even try sailing high, you'd bung up the kite and dead run, they even plane dead downwind and wth a certain history of close racing against one in an assym boat with similar handicap, you have to get it spot on to nail one down wind. I reckon, strip off the bow and fit the RS500 rig and set up to a 470 and you'd have a unit that would be faster on all points, except obviously dead downwind, but hey would it not look a whole lot more modern in front of the worlds TV media. And if the Olympics showcase as it is, were to attract newcomers, what better craft with the simplicity of the RS500 rig set up and the relative comfort of the 470 hull. Now and again when an activity gets stumped for direction, there's nothing like a bit of revisionism. No brainer as I see it, I'd order one tomorrow. Edited by G.R.F. |
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Scooby_simon
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 12:34am | |
How many "new rig" 49ers are there around as I assume it's been selected with this rig this time round..... My point is, does it matter? |
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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
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NeilP
Far too distracted from work Joined: 23 Nov 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 271 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 1:17am | |
Grumpf - even in a symmetric boat, we don't sail dead downwind unless there's a VERY good tidal reason to do so. The 470 is a great boat, it doesn't need any changes to the rig. Some updating of the construction would be good, I agree. And thankfully, there is no way to "force" changes on the class. Any changes to the class rules have to come from the Class itself, which ISAF would then ratify when they recieved a submission (used to be the Centreboard Committee, anyone know where these go now?). As far as I can see, there is no advantage to be gained by "modernising" what is already a very well-developed and understood rig. If you think there is, put your Asbo up against a decently-sailed new 505 and see how long you can still see their transom. |
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No FD? No Comment!
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Guest
Newbie Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 9:35am | |
Jim, The point is there were very few 49ers around BEFORE it's Olympic selection; a very similar situation to the XX. You could argue that the XX is actually in a better position as there are many hulls around waiting for XX rigs ... when the 49er got the nod there was a considerable waiting list and it took months to get a boat. New rig on a 470 ... you can put lipstick on a granny but you still don't want a kiss ... |
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Guest
Newbie Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 9:48am | |
It does seem that the council seems to do their own thing ... begs the question what is the point of all the other committees of experts whos submissions keep getting overturned. |
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Scooby_simon
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 10:07am | |
Interesting comments from John Derbyshire: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=144215
He's got a point IMO
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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
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