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49er medal race

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golfdane View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote golfdane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 08 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by AndersDK

The Spanish Olympic Committee has brought the case to CAS (Court of Arbitration for Sports).

They are "accusing" the jury, on their decision of calling the usage of the Croatian boat for legal.

They'll hang it on various points:

1) Point 21.1 & 21.3 of the sailing instruction, where it is specified, that its allowed to change parts of the boat that are broken. They intepretate, that it does not include the hull

2) Point 3 of the NoR says, that every boat in the medal race should sail with camera weighing approx 3 kg, which the croatian boat didn't carry.

3) Point 13 of the sailing instruction says that every boat competing in the medal race must be quarantined 24 hours up to the race (dont ask my why). The Croation boat wasnt.

4) Obviously the issue of not having DEN, but CRO in the main sail.

With all these points, the Spanish claims that the decision of the jury was not correct.

Against is the ruling of the jury, that basicly takes all these matters into account, but states, that no advantage was gained from an of the "violatons".

 

1: Sailing Instructions 18.7 states, that breaches of 21.1, 21.2 and 21.3, are not grounds for a protest by a boat. It also states, that the penalty for breaching it may be less than disqualification, should the jury so decide. IOW, a competitor can't protest towards infractions.

2: NoR point 4 states: Boats may be required to carry cameras, sound equipment or positioning equipment as specified by the organizing authority.

3: Point 13.7 in MR states: A breach of this Instruction will not be grounds for protest by a boat. This changes RRS 60.1(a). The penalty for a breach of this Instruction will be at the discretion of the International Jury and may include ranking the boat tenth in the regatta. If there are two such boats they will be ranked ninth and tenth, in order of their opening-series ranks, etc.

4: Violation of appendix G in RRS. G4 states: When a protest committee finds that a boat has broken a rule of this appendix it shall either warn her and give her time to comply or penalize her.

Of course, the italians and the spanish calls for a disqualification, but I believe the jury decides. When the danish crew appearently was allowed to race in the croatian boat (and I assume they were since they weren't removed from the course), do I think that the OMC and the RC was informed of the switch and the false identifications. Information, that I believe the support boats were allowed to inform crews about, should they so wish (freely available to everyone).

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/OG2008_MeasurementReg s_Issue1-[5405].pdf

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/08_OG_SailingInstruct ions-[5934].pdf

http://www.sailing2008.org/file01/NoticeofRace-OlympicSailin gCompetition.pdf

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS2005-2008-[502].pdf

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RyanV49er View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RyanV49er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 08 at 8:24am

Originally posted by Spyderman

Did ESP and ITA protests DEN? No the RC did.
ITA and ESP requested redress afterwards, which is invalid in a medal race.
You can't cover all eventualities, sailing has too many variables.

Actually ESP did protest Denmark, alongside the RC protest.

The fact of the matter is, Denmark didn't gain anything from using a different boat.  It wasn't there's, was badly set up, different roap lengths and control systems.  There was no gain what-so-ever, but many drawbacks.  Christ, they started 4 minutes and 50 something seconds after the gun!  ESP and ITAS need to suck it in, and just accepthat the better sailors won. 

finally, maybe this comes down to the conditions.  Should the RC have raced the 49ers in that breeze and sea state?  Every single boat capsized at least once, and there was a mast breakge.  N ot really medal race conditions...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote AndersDK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 08 at 10:35am

Ok, as far as I understand it, it seems like CAS has to decide whether the Jury acted correctly or not. IMO there seems to be a significant chance of that CAS will support the jury in their decision, aka ESP & ITA will lose appeal case.

One thing I dont see very clear, is ITA's case. They claim to have sailed to obtain the 5th spot in the medal race, in order to secure the bronze medal. Not seing the DEN boat on the race course (and proberbly wondering what the h... the Croatians were doing) they figured 5th place was sufficient for the bronze.

After the race it became clear, that CRO was DEN, and they lost the medal.

IMO they might have a case here.

What is the case here?

How could they know about the boat swap?

Could they disq the Danes? (I guess not)

Could they claim redress?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote RyanV49er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 08 at 10:41am

But they finished miles away from the next boat! No way could they have pulled up.  they didn't capsize  to avoid sailing into 4th, they capsized because they nailed it into a huge ass wave when they were leading down the last run!  If theywere sailing for fifth, why put the kite up when you are leading by so much?  Surely the "We thought we just had to get fifth so didn't try for higher" is bull when you think of it this way? 

I have to say I feel so sorry for the Sibellos.  They are great guys and really deserved a medal, but it's not fair to penlise the Danes because the Sibellos put the kite up on the last run and pitchpoled.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote AndersDK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 08 at 12:53pm

I agree with your points, Ryan, from a sailors point of view. But how would a lawyer look at it?

I dont see them protesting about this, or?

I cant see the connction between the case for ITA and the case for ESP. They are substantially different.

ESP has sailed as good as they could, having won the medal race. As a matter of fact, you could discus whether a rule 2 "Fair Sportsmanship" trial could be relevant, when looking at their eager for the gold, despite the clear logic, that they evidently didnt sail as fast as the Danes, during the event.

ITA might have had a disadvantage caused by the CRO-sail. They would, that they might have taken more chances and squizzed the lemon even more, if they knew that a 4th would give them a bronze medal. My problem is that I dont understand the juridical aspects of this.

(btw: what a worldclass website you run! Im impressed and entertained)



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Post Options Post Options   Quote RyanV49er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 08 at 1:09pm
I think I must be too much of an idealist in my opinions (of course the other teams will try to find ways to win), but I wish the lawyers would leave sailing alone. 

Oh, and italy could never have got 4th aftyer that capsize. There was about 2 or 3 minutes between boats finishing.  If you've ever raced 49ers, that's a huge distance.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote golfdane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 08 at 1:19pm

According to the rules in place, could they not claim redress in the medal race.

As I see it; an italian support boat COULD have given the message, since it was information freely available (known to the OMC, RC and visible on their bibs, if you came close enough (and I bet they can recognize each other on greater distances than you'd have to be to read the bib)). That is, if a support boat is allowed to come close enough to yell it or show a sign.

It's common sense, that it couldn't possibly be a croatian crew. IF the croats felt like going sailing, would everyone know, that they would be removed from the competition area. The danish wreck was known, so I would assume they somehow had gotten permission to use it. Of course, during a medal race, you're probably to focused to think straight.

Anyway, violation of appendix G calls for a warning and time to correct or a penalty decided by the jury. Not a competitior.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote golfdane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 08 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by RyanV49er

finally, maybe this comes down to the conditions.  Should the RC have raced the 49ers in that breeze and sea state?  Every single boat capsized at least once, and there was a mast breakge.  N ot really medal race conditions...

I find it curious, that the maximum windspeed (peak) measured during the 49er race, is listed in the race report as being 14 know on all points. Below the maximum allowable of 15 knot where the race has to be abandoned. Every race the same day, had winds above 15 knots.

I also think the warning signal was AFTER 16:30.

BTW, according to protest 66, were the danes 3:57 after. 1st marker showed 4:48 after the leading french boat, and the gap up to the leading boat increased through the race.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote RyanV49er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 08 at 2:11pm
Maximum 15 knots? Where did you get this from?  it's usually 25knots for the 49er.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 08 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by golfdane

Originally posted by RyanV49er

finally, maybe this comes down to the conditions.  Should the RC have raced the 49ers in that breeze and sea state?  Every single boat capsized at least once, and there was a mast breakge.  N ot really medal race conditions...

I find it curious, that the maximum windspeed (peak) measured during the 49er race, is listed in the race report as being 14 know on all points. Below the maximum allowable of 15 knot where the race has to be abandoned. Every race the same day, had winds above 15 knots.

I also think the warning signal was AFTER 16:30.

BTW, according to protest 66, were the danes 3:57 after. 1st marker showed 4:48 after the leading french boat, and the gap up to the leading boat increased through the race.

 

Waring sig was BEFORE 14:30 as stipulated, the race started just after.

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