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Dinghy Development for the MATURE sailor

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Dago View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dago Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dinghy Development for the MATURE sailor
    Posted: 15 Jan 05 at 12:21am

Wow,wow, looking at some of the latest messages, maybe it's time to take a step back and review what the topic was all about in the first place,, before blood is shed!!

Being the originator of this particular discussion, I was looking to find out if a 'modern' dinghy design with a genniker rather than a symmetrical kite exsists. It must have a single wire and fits he 180kg+  combined crew weight.

Before we see class v class bashing let me state my posistion on this quite clear.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the established classes.

I have always been a involved in all the boats that I have owned & raced, which lately  includes 'twin hulled' dinghies in the form of Dart 18, Dart 16 (having developed the Genniker version) & lately Spitfire which my son now races.

However or But, there is always a but or however! 

So far no manufacturer has come up with, or seems prepared to commit to a design, that is single wire of between 16 - 20ft length, with a genniker, that weights less than 100 kgs, that more mature 'old farts' can enjoy.

Having spent many months searching the internet, the only craft that may fit the bill is the antipodean boat called a 'Javelin'.

It bears no relation to the UK boat also called by the same name. I think Brian our NZ friend, will bear me out when I say that it's a 14ft version of the Cherub.

 Looking at the figures, it would seem that for around 5500 you can get one imported from NZ or Aus, in GRP which ain't a bad price to pay, even if initally it's the only one in the UK! Will it carry 180-190 kilo in a light breeze?  

When you consider that 10 years ago, the Laser 5000 & Iso were the fore runners for both twin & single trapese genniker designs, the twin wire brigade has spawned the Boss, 49er & RS800 as the most popular. The single wire mode has only spawned the Laser 4000.

Come on you guys, it's about time more single wire options were available.

Maybe  Phil Morrison, & Clive Everest, who are the most prolific designers of this style, can or indeed already have something up their sleeves.

Is 2005 going to be the year that us old folk got to go racing in modern boat??

 

 

REgards,

 

Dago
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Blobby View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 7:43am

To be fair, the L4000 weight equalisation chart goes up to 94kg for helm and crew.  With a 90kg helm and 80kg crew you are only just at the minimum rack position and no lead so the answer is you are technically catered for...whether an L4000 appeals to you or not is another matter. 

Beyond that I guess the answer is probably no...unless you want to invest time and effort investing in generating a new class.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 1:30pm

If you were going for starting a new class what about a sort of modern day Ospray or FD 18 to 20 ft The longer the hull is the less sensitive it would be for crew weight. Probably hull weight of approx 80 to 100Kg Large sail area set on a nice springy automatic rig, masthead Aysymetric

Single wire, (But I liked the original 800 idea of single or twin string depending on rack position.) possably small racks.

The longer waterline should make it deamon up wind and quite safe down easily faster than the 49er

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 4:17pm
I remember a quick report in Y&Y from years ago which detailed something very similar to what you describe, think it was three man twin trapeeze, I guess it was to 18 foot skiffs what the RS800 is to the 49er same kind of size but smaller rig and easier to sail.  I think it was designed in Ireland but I cant remeber much more than that, have a funny feeling it never really took off.  Pity, it looked quite sporty. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 5:40pm
Now thats the kind of javelin i like!!
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by Granite

If you were going for starting a new class what about a sort of modern day Ospray or FD 18 to 20 ft The longer the hull is the less sensitive it would be for crew weight. Probably hull weight of approx 80 to 100Kg Large sail area set on a nice springy automatic rig, masthead Aysymetric

Single wire, (But I liked the original 800 idea of single or twin string depending on rack position.) possably small racks.

The longer waterline should make it deamon up wind and quite safe down easily faster than the 49er


Sounds like a very nice concept, but would it really be faster than a 49er???? After all, the 18 foot skiff is of similar length, has much more power (two more traps, more beam I assume, and much bigger rig) and it's not a huge amount faster than a 49er. If you reduce sail power and righting moment dramatically, you surely won't be "easily" faster than the 49er which will have more of the vital righting moment, due to the extra trap.

Which leads one to ask; couldn't the larger guys just kick it off by getting 18s and just using one trap, the #2 rig in light conditions and revive the #3 rig?

The "18 foot skiff trainer" Blobby was mentioning sounds interesting, I'd never heard of an Irish boat like that. Julian Bethwaite's B18/GP 18 did start off as a "trainer" for the real 18s, with the skipper just hiking and the small rig (mind you, its "small" rig was probably similar to the current 18's "big" rig).

 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote mpl720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 10:11am

The easiest way to get a concept like this going - and its an excellent one - is to adapt what is already there as others suggest.  To my mind why not change the wing system on something like the Boss with a modest tramp across the back for the helm and run a single trapeze for the crew.  It's fast, easily handled, very light, carbon rig and a has a very powerful and (now) well developed sail plan.   They can also be purchased cheaply at the moment and that is what is needed to have any chance of real success.  This approach will never produce a 49er beater but that is not the prime objective surely - but it would be very far from being slow !.   This approach would be much more practical and much more affordable to get started - Yes you could use an 800 in single tramp mode but it would not carry the weight as well etc etc.  I remember when the Boss  came second to the 49er in the selection trials so its worth a second look - it might even find its niche yet on a revised basis with a second PN !

I'd guess that any combined crew weight below 155-160kg would struggle and the optimum weight would be something like 170-180+kg in single wire mode.  Anyway perhaps food for thought ? 

Cheers - Mike L.

    

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 1:31pm

A concept like that would probably be top end speed limited down wind at the top of the wind range, but in typical UK conditions 10 to 12 Kts upwind it would be verry fast.  maybe the 49er was a bit much but in sub planing conditions waterline length is king.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote mpl720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 2:46pm

The Boss is very far from 'slouchy' offwind but unlikely to be in full 49er country but the call was for a fast modern asymetric for 'adult' sized crews.  It's also fairly long and a good weight carrier.  Can be bought for peanuts currently and are well built and light.  Class appears to be dying fast so might be a good for transformation (along with the name !) to get things going in new format.

Mike L.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 6:36pm
I was having a discussion at my club this weekend on related kinda issues... When one is, shall we say, of slighly more mature years, there are other things to consider. Both of us, crewing in our respective chosen high performance boats, have found that its kite hoists and drops that really take it out of you, and because your recovery time isn't as fast as it once was then each lap makes you a bit more tired than the one before, and each day a bit more, so by the end of day three of an event you're really creaking.

The other week I dropped in to someones boat to crew, and I must have been on the tail end of a virus or something, because the performance was absolutely pathetic. OK it didn't help that the halyard turn block was broken, doubling the effort, but it was all I could do to get out on the wire by the end of the race. Most desperately awful crewing job I've turned in since I knew one end of a spinnaker pole from the other...

Obviously the age at which this kicks in varies with the amount of time you can spend in the gym and numerous other factors, but the point is that something like the Boss isn't going to be a great call for the average club sailor of more advanced years. You need to be able to catch your breath and recover! The one time I crewed a Boss (not my style of boat at all) I felt that the physical effort/performance ratio was a bit skewed towards the hard work for my taste and birth year...
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