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Sailing Instructions vs Racing Rules

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by sargesail

Boat B the give-way boat had no reason to believe she was not the right of way (or to go IRPCAS - stand-on vessel).á


Questionable.áThey wereádifferent classes in the same event. It isn't too much toáexpect that you might know whicháclassesástarted ahead of you.


In a protest I'd chuck boat A under rule 10 and boat B under 14 and 22.1.


á



It is reasnable to know the classes starting ahead of you and possibly the order but to know the specific starting condition of any boat that you meat is pushing it a bit especially if they are part of a number of general handicap classes.

The Sailing instructions have introduced a situation where the right of way boat will swap on a large number of occations through the starting sequence without any good indication of the change.
I would suggest that the situation is caused by the sailing instructions that have changed expectation of who has right of way in a random and arbitary way. I would say that the organising club is at fault for the colision.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 2:24pm
Like that one Phi!  Club to pay the excess then!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 2:33pm

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

That maybe so, but given who is asking the question, we need to go further than the results of a protest.  The protest does not provide a definition of ultimate "fault", it provides a ruling based on the SAILING RULES that apply.

It's the sailing rules that matter, because both boats have entered races and thereby contracted to abide by the RRS. This is true even if they are in different regattas. In places such as the Solent and Chichster Harbour it's quite common to encounter boats racing in different events to your own and RRS apply between such boats. There are both ISAF cases and real-life lawsuits that say it is RRS that must be used to decide RoW and hence fault. See the Mary Pera link I posted earlier in this thread for some history on the subject. 

Saying RRS apply isn't the same as saying a protest ruling decides the outcome of an insurance claim. The latter is for insurance companies to agree between themselves, or ultimately the courts. But it's RRS that provides the framework for the decision, not colregs.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 3:27pm

Stefan,

 

I think we are actually agreeing here (almost).

Consider when the SI's of one regatta say stbd gives way to port and this fleet meets another fleet who are sailing by the normal rules.

Then the RRS apply?  Or the conflicting SI's ?,

 

In this case the port boat is wrong ?

One thing I do not understand is when the SI vs RRS switch may occur, and how this timing can be definedů

 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 3:30pm

You come under the remit of Part 2 of the RRS even before your prep signal:

WHEN BOATS MEET

The rules of Part 2 apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area

and intend to race, are racing, or have been racing. However, a boat not racing

shall not be penalized for breaking one of these rules, except rule 22.1. When a

boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with

the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) or

government right-of-way rules. However, an alleged breach of those rules shall

not be grounds for a protest except by the race committee or protest committee.

If the sailing instructions so state, the rules of Part 2 are replaced by the rightof-

way rules of the IRPCAS or by government right-of-way rules.

 

So, if you're sailing around the start area, you have to comply with the Part 2 of the RRS - the whole "when boats meet" bit. Because both boats are intending to race/are racing, the RRS apply.

The preamble specifically states that a boat can be penalized under 22.1.

The downside is that it doesn't negate Ports requirements to keep clear of a starboard boat.

Normally difficult to do these things online, but gut feel would be to DSQ both boats - S for 10, P for 22.1 - assumig that S complied with the whole R&O requirements, and made reasonable efforts to avoid collision.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Consider when the SI's of one regatta say stbd gives way to port and this fleet meets another fleet who are sailing by the normal rules.

Then the RRS apply?  Or the conflicting SI's ?,

 

You can't do that - or at least, you can't do that and use ANY of the ISAF RRS. SI's cant change rules of Part 2. And if you write your own part 2 rules, and use any other ISAF RRS, then you're actually in breach of copyright. Also, I doubt any insurance company would be willing to cover any racing under rules that are diametrically opposite to the IRPCS.

 

One thing I don't know is whether affiliation to the RYA means that clubs agree to always use the RRS for racing - or whether the RYA liability insurance (I assume there is such a thing) requires use of the RRS.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 4:08pm

Thanks Presuming Ed knew that Colreg applied or where mention somehow... Thought I was going mad...Ok those that know me I am already  unfortunate thing about work is that you don't have your rule book with you!!!! Besides mines enroute to Australia.

So in this case the SIs should not apply

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Noble Marine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 4:16pm
I agree that a racing rule in part 2 cannot be changed (rule 86.1), but what if the SI were intended to reinforce the rules, but in doing so changed the emphasis?

A great number of clubs and regattas carry the same or similar wording in their Sailing Instructions (see this Google search) shifting the emphasis that a boat not racing MUST keep clear of a racing boat, rather than keeping clear "if reasonably possible" as per rule 22.1.

To follow this through, is it not possible that in a multiple fleet start, a fleet of slower boats awaiting their start, could be decimated by a faster boat who is racing, but who would not have right of way if the slower boats were also racing?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 4:35pm

Then the wording of the SI is wrong IMHO. Having worked with barristers and solicitors what is meant is often not what is written and therefore what is written conflicts and is therefore invalid.

Again though some mention line and define the line and others mention area with only a few defining what area is eg RCYCRBYC, Optimist.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 07 at 5:01pm

Originally posted by Stuart O

Thanks Presuming Ed knew that Colreg applied or where mention somehow... So in this case the SIs should not apply

The SIs do apply, because both boats are involved in racing in the same events. RRS apply even if they are not in the same event, if both are involved in racing.

There are two situations for a racing boat when colregs apply.

1. When meeting a boat that isn't racing, intending to race etc. as defined in the part 2 preamble.

2. Some SIs state that colregs will apply after dark. This is common for offshore races but not otherwise. The reason is that in the dark, you can't tell if another boat is racing or cruising.

Neither of those conditions are true, so SIs and RRS apply.

 

 

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