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Phil eltringham View Drop Down
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Posts: 1105 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: VAGO
    Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by Harry44981!

 

well i think a pico is alot better than a topper anyday!!!

I wouldn't agree, non biased opinions:

  • They are both equally good for training, if a pic is a little more spacious - vital for teaching
  • Both have jib kits - topper's is a bodge and metal bits stick out unsafely
  • Toppers look better, without the pink and yellow colour combo - who cares when you are learning
  • Toppers weigh less - centreboard further from the water when capsized
  • Toppers have fully adjustable controlls - overcomplicates things when teaching, more to go wrong/fix
  • Toppers have a very good race circuit, picos have none - thought this was about a teaching boat
  • Therefore there are more possibilities with toppers eg: racing - ditto
  • toppers are cheaper? - topper RRP £2295 pico RRP £2255
  • toppers have option of aft or centre main - so do picos the change takes about 2 min
  • toppers are isaf approved class, and RYA junior and pathway class - not really inportant when you start, also intimedates older starters
  • There is alot of high standard race training available to toppers- none to pico apart from private sailing schools- non pico specific - ditto
  • Me and waverider sail toppers   - hmmmmm
  • How many top sailors has the pico class bred vs Toppers? - not been around long enough to say
  • erm thats all i can think of at the moment..
  • Oh and I got stuck under a Pico when i was younger and it was really scary! - fair play

sorry if this sounds a little flippant, its not meant to be.   its just that you can argue everything both ways and this is a welcome distraction from trying to design an oceanographic research vessel. 

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Harry44981! View Drop Down
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Posts: 736 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Harry44981! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 4:21pm

All true for a training boat Phil, but the topper is Rya approaved so has that training in form of zone and national squads etc. and Topper have their own national squad too, and spesific regional training. If you own one you'll want it too look better, both are ugly boats but the topper has better colours. the toppers aft and centre main are within class regualtions and can be raced with unlike pico. The controlls are vital for higher level competition, and if you dont want them you can stick with the original standard (crap) ones. I don't know where that topper quote came from, I got mine fully race rigged, trolley etc. for aout £2000 brand new, don't buy 'em from topper international them rip you off. The centreboard sticking out less far is less of an issue for righting than that the pico hull is really heavy.

I suppose a pico is better for sticking someone whos never sailed before in, but for racing or anything slightly competitve it doesn't even get close to the topper, laser 4.7 or oppie.
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hurricane View Drop Down
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Posts: 1047 		Post Options Post Options   Quote hurricane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 4:22pm
I KNEW that would cause an argument thats why i said it
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Harry44981! View Drop Down
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Posts: 736 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Harry44981! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 4:24pm

Healthy disscussion is far better than French homework!

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Phil eltringham View Drop Down
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Posts: 1105 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 5:01pm

The RRP prices came straight off the respective manufactueres websites. 

The actual mass of the boat is not that important for righting from a capsize, the important point is where the centre of gravity is in relation to the centre of the underwater volume of the hull on its side (moment of rig which you pull against to right) also the pico hull does drain out faster than a toppers.  (I think pico mast top sections are sealed too unlike a topper's, which helps stop inversions)

I think the point is that neither boat is "better" than the other, it is just that they do different jobs, so direct comparisson is kind of pointless!
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Harry44981! View Drop Down
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Posts: 736 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Harry44981! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 5:41pm
Yup well said Phil, (btw the topper top sections are sealed- the new ones are anyway)
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stuarthop View Drop Down
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Posts: 1040 		Post Options Post Options   Quote stuarthop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 7:45pm
topers are easier to sail now with the centre main kit. my bro had to test it for harken as part of his sponsership and he loved it. its also made the transition into a radial easier for him

Edited by stuarthop

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Contender443 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1211 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by Harry44981!

Healthy disscussion is far better than French homework!

 

Better not say that Harry there is a French teacher on this forum and she is watching you

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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by stuarthop

topers are easier to sail now with the centre main kit.


Not sure I agree with that - but it does give people the option and makes transition from an oppie and then on easier.

And I'm not saying that because I don't have experience of sailing centre sheeted boats. For someone like me who's too heavy for a Topper it noticable puts my weight in the wrong place when tacking or gybing - if I was ever to think about racing it centre-main I'd have to tack facing aft (like in Europes)...

I think the jury is still out.
Garry

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Harry44981! View Drop Down
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Posts: 736 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Harry44981! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 8:06am
Centre main is far better in heavy airs in chop, with aft we had to do this funny twisting chop technique, but it's alot better with centre main. Plus facing forwards is good.
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