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Did ISAF make the right decision?

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Poll Question: Was it right removing the catamaran from the 2012 Olympic regatta?
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tmoore View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tmoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 2:46pm

aussie laser hulls are also better. im no sure, but i think its something to do with the temperature over there. when the epoxy/resin stuff which is used it dries stiffer over there due to the increased temperature. the gelcoat is a slightly different colour, but other than that the hulls are identicle in measurements.

the reason for aussie top seations being better is that the mast collar things are ever so slightly tighter in the mast, stopping rotating during sailing, it also reduces the pressure points, reducing breakage.

all this is what i have been told, never used aussie kit so cant say for sure.

for one design, i would say everything MUST be standard and controlled. something like a solo, GP14 is NOT a OD. when speeds made the new GP which is so much faster, they took an existing fast hull, added FRP, AND changed the shape slightly. This means not everything is standard.

as for the T, its not really a OD. This does not detract from it in any way. it allows:

different cuts of sails for different weights etc- good

more builders- competition should bring prices down

new ideas- keeps the class from becoming obsolete

basically there are a set of measurement which control the main things. so in the respect it is almost a OD. i would say its a heavily restricted development class.

but in the end, does it really matter?

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 3:13pm
I don't know why you boys are making a new set of definitions, when it seems to me that the old ones of One Design, which means just that, One Design, and Single Manufacturer One Design are perfectly adequate.

Classes like the Solo and GP14, same basic shape, different builders, slight differences allowed are *exactly* what One Design has always meant. I really don't understand why you have a problem with that.

One Design, as oppposed to one builder: is it that hard?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 4:05pm

Originally posted by JimC

I don't know why you boys are making a new set of definitions, when it seems to me that the old ones of One Design, which means just that, One Design, and Single Manufacturer One Design are perfectly adequate.

Classes like the Solo and GP14, same basic shape, different builders, slight differences allowed are *exactly* what One Design has always meant. I really don't understand why you have a problem with that.

One Design, as oppposed to one builder: is it that hard?

 

Jim,

We believe that One design means exactly that.  Rules are in place so all boats in the class look the same, rules are tight so people do not exploit them, the boats are the same when you MEASURE them, not +/- 5mm here and there.  As mentioned above re other classes.

Modern manufactring techniques allow built to much tighter tolerances. so older classes where tolerances are high, where they could not be exploited in the past, now can and so people will build inside these (now) wide tolerances to make boats faster, thus making older boats obsolete, thus making a class into a development class as people want a "fast shape".  Development is taking place. 

Has the laser hull changed shape - nope, so its a one design, all be it in this case a SMOD. 

Maybe some of these boats WERE one design as in the past it was not possible to build inside the tolerances to gain advantage, now you can. 

Tornado Hulls look the same (but on close inspection, I white, Eales or Martrom hull are not the same).  T sails are not the same, put therm side by side, and apart from the emblem, they are different.

Ask a simple question.  Are all T sails the same shape.  If you were to take all the sails from a T worlds and draw round them, would you get the same shape.  Would they all have the same length battens.

No, the head shapes are different and have been over the years.  The T rules do not say that the sail must have this luff lengh, Panel 1 must be the following shape, Panel 2 this shape etc.  The sails are not the same.  NOT ONE DESIGN.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 5:51pm

I think simon and I agree more or less, just i'm not very good at descibing what i mean.  Also this discussion seems to have come down to a battle over the symantics of the term "one design" (a little off the point).  When I first said "one design", i think i should have said "no development" or "identical". 

Can the Tornado really justify the fact it costs so much more (initial and continued costs) just because of a now unnessasary class rule.  If nothing else the T could pick one combination of hull shape, sail shape, etc and freeze everything.  ISAF want uniformity (allegedly at least), the best example of this being the spec for the new womens skiff, which called for all boats to be built in identical moulds from a single common plug, which seems, to me at least, as good a definition of one design, as any i think.  The other option could be what was suggested for the I14 at the same trials, where at the start of each olympic cycle the spec of the olympic boats is changed to reflect the latest developments in the domestic fleet, so there is a freeze on change to keep the playing field level and then a jump for the next cycle to keep the class up to date and challenging.  I reckon the T missed a trick here with the adoption of the big rig, they could easilly have made it a one design in the same vane as the laser rather than leaving the tollerances in (and to keep everyone else happy just have a grandfather rule for the old boats for domestic competition only excluding them from the olympics/grade 1 events), or am i being too sensible?

As for the way in which classes like th GP14 have managed with tollerances, i would argue that if olympic medals were at stake that there would be considerably more time, effort and money poured into pushing the limits of their designs.   Even as things are today a new GP is more expensive than a 29er. 

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 6:53pm
Guys, guys... what you (or at least Phil) is saying is that you think the Tornado should be a SMOD. Fair enough. That's a perfectly reasonable point of view (unless you're a Tornado builder other than the chosen one anyway).

But right now the Tornado is a One Design, just as the 470, the Finn, the Star and the Yngling of the current Olympic classes are also One Designs. You really shouldn't try and change the accepted meaning of the terms to what you think they ought to be, otherwise you just create confusion.

You don't think the accepted and traditional meaning of the phrase One Design is right. I don't think you're going to get the entire sailing world to agree with you. And you must remember too that the external shape is a small part of the potential variation, things like laminate specification, weight distribution, even the alignment of fibres and choice of resin make as much or even more difference than a few millimetres here or there. If you'd sailed real development boats you'd know that in practice very big differences in shape often make damn all difference. In addition these construction variations are practically impossible to police, which is why "identical" boats have to be single manufacturer...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 9:43pm

I think it a strength at the T is not One design.  It allows the boat to be tailored to an extent to how the person wants it.

The T should never be a SMOD.  It would be a massive step backwards.

The other thing is that the T is not that much more expensive.  Boats last a long time (I hear that at least one boat at the 2008 games will have been at 2000 and 2004).  The boats last ages.

Boat costs are a small part of the costs of an Olympic campaign. 

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

I think it a strength at the T is not One design. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 07 at 9:08am

JimC et al are right, the T IS one design - exactly like a Fireball is. 

P.S. No development class (eg F18) will ever be selected for the Olympics.  At best (worst) the Tiger might be selected as a stand alone one-design, but as Jim points out that would probably be terrible for the class.

If you want a SMOD cat at the Olympics, how about the Dart 18 - it must be the Laser equivialent of the cat world (in terms of simplicity) and it even has the same designer as the T!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 07 at 10:52am
A cat with skegs... in the Olympics... 
Maybe time to give the Hurricane 5.9 a shot in the arm.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Dec 07 at 10:54am

Originally posted by JimC

And you must remember too that the external shape is a small part of the potential variation, things like laminate specification, weight distribution, even the alignment of fibres and choice of resin make as much or even more difference than a few millimetres here or there. If you'd sailed real development boats you'd know that in practice very big differences in shape often make damn all difference. In addition these construction variations are practically impossible to police, which is why "identical" boats have to be single manufacturer...

Jim first of all i want to applogise for allowing my self to get carried away and degenerating this discussion into an argument over symantics.  I understand your point of view and while i don't share it i can appreciate where you are coming from and in truth i think more people will agree with you.  However I would like to say that I am fully aware of the miriad of possible variations that can occur when building boats (controlling it is what i do for a living).  So I know that making the most of every variation and using the right combination of them can make huge differances.  There are people who make good money from doing just that, I just wish I was one of them. 

I'd like to see you sit down with the guys from Marstrom and Graham Eeles and try and convince them of that, let alone a group of I14 sailors, because if that was true why have the variation at all?  I've spent my time in "real development boats" and I can tell you that changing sails/masts/foils, let alone hull designs make a big difference, it can feel like stepping into acompletly different class.  Even in a heavilly restricted class like the B14 I sail at the moment the new carbon mast, feels completely different, even though it has the same bend characteristics to within a couple of mm as the aluminium mast it replaces. 

I just think that for the olympics all the boats should be as close to identical as humanly possible so as to keep a level playing field.  The laser, radials and windsurfers are supplied boats, and the 49er could even go that way too, so rightly or wrongly ISAF are moving in that direction already. 

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