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Did ISAF make the right decision? |
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Scooby_simon
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
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Topic: Did ISAF make the right decision? Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 11:37am |
Guys; Don't agree;there class rules give thetolerances. Do you see as 5mm a tight tolerance on a Tornado Hull? I don't. The F18 was "Designed" as a Box rule. The T is a box rule, just with some tighter tolerances in some areas!
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 12:23pm |
Well Simon, lets just say that you're using an entirely different definition of "One design" to the whole of the rest of the world and leave it at that then.
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Scooby_simon
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 12:25pm |
Thing is what is a one design tolerance? Is an IC a one design? Or a box rule?, Ditto International 14, 18 foot Skiff? |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 1:06pm |
The size of the tolerances are not really anything to do with it. Its whether the boats are built to a common design or not. If they are all built to one common design then they are one design, if not then not.
A one design will have quite a large set of measurements which generally fall within a maximum and minimum value. The idea is that all boats are basically the same shape, with some scope for building errors and of course distortion with age and use, and the point of the measurements is to check that the boat is a reasonable approximation of the original design. A box rule will normally have a smaller set of measurements, and they tend to be just maxima or minim,a as appropriate. The point is that there is no intention for the boats to approximate an original design: its just a framework for designers to play with. Some one designs can have quite loose tolerances - the 505 is an example where the rules were made loose enough that quite appreciable changes of rocker and rocker distribution can be made. Nevertheless they are all clearly 505s to the same shape, and a 1955 505 looks much like a 2005 one. If you look at box rules boats then all the boats are clearly not to the same basi shape... A current rules IC or AC has a one design hull, but freedom in the rig BTW. Its possible to build an IC to the current rule with multiple chines or smooth skin, but either way you still have a boat that is basically to the shape that Nethercott designed back in the 60s. Edited by JimC |
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Scooby_simon
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 1:27pm |
I'd like to hear if the Tornado Sailors think they sail a one-design boat. Jim, this comes down to what level of difference you allow and still maintain it's a one design. Your example of the IC with smooth or chine hull to me makes it a development class - maybe limited development, but still a development class - you have a choice of hull shape. Same is true of the T, A White hull is not the same as a Marstrom or an Eales hull; they are different and perform in different ways and have different sweet spots, you make a choice when you buy one. Also, perhaps some reference to the ethos of the class. The I14 is clearly a development class, but still has controls. The I14 is a box rule, as is the F18, F16. The T allows different hull / sail shapes and so is not a one-design, but so does the IC. Your example of the 5o5 is a good one as I would call the 5o5 a limited development class in a similar way to the T; hull shapes are different, rigs are different and you can set the rig controls how you want them. I feel that the difference between a one design and a development class (even if limited) is that you have the choice to have hulls of different shapes, thus you are taking a decision to develop the boat in a chosen direction, thus development class. If the tolerances are simply there to allow the manufacturing process to function down to a cost, then you have a one design. If the tolerances are large enough to take advantage of, then it's a development class.
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 1:59pm |
But Simon, T sailors they know they are sailing a one design boat: it says so on the rules.
Its really very simple. A development rule can be designed by any designer. A one design boat was designed by the original designer. Edited by JimC |
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Scooby_simon
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 2:02pm |
But the Marstrom T was designed by Marstrom to take advantages of the rules; Ditto the Eales T; Perhaps we need another "moniker" a "Silouette class"; they look the same to the untrained eye, but they are not the same.
Calling T sailors for their comments. |
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alstorer
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 2:30pm |
"Restrricted Class"? Not allowed to develop as such, but enough room to play a little, with various designs available and class legal- and often a multitude of builders. Apllies to a lot more than just T's, I'd say- 5o5s being a classic example. They certainly aren't OD, but they aren't development either.
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tack'ho
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 9:29am |
I would say that the difference in hull designs of a "One Design" are a by-product of the allowed building tolerences not as a result of the intention of the rule writer. Lets face it even SMODs have differencess why were the australian laser mast top sections so popular for non-kit supplied open events?!?
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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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Scooby_simon
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 28 Dec 07 at 10:42am |
That's part of my point. The laser class intends to be a very strict one design. But there are differences that are exploited to gain advantage. BUT the laser hulls all come out of a set of moulds that "should be the same", ditto the masts. The T does not.
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