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Did ISAF make the right decision?

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Poll Question: Was it right removing the catamaran from the 2012 Olympic regatta?
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bowwave59 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bowwave59 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 11:00am
i think the cats will be back in the 2016 games, but as the F18 cat class. They just want to get rid of the Tornado 30,000 an expensive boat thats had the monopoly to long. F18's are in most clubs, around 10,000 with 3 main types from nacra, hobie and capricorn and is the largest growing class with a greater pool of top sailors to choose from.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 5:03pm
I opologise for my exageration of the sparcity of the UK Tornado fleet, but looking at the ISAF rankings only 3 of those teams were in a positon to qualify for China, and the UK (along with maybe France) are definately the exception rather than the rule when it comes to populating the top of the rankings.  looking through the whole list (all 82) there are very few represented countries that would would not be classed as 'western' or 'first world'.  Although this may represent the worldwide spread of the class, it does not represent the worldwide spread of cat sailing, let alone sailing at all (the F18 may well be little better at the moment, i don't know, but it has a far better chance of spreading, costing half as much).  And that is my main point, the Tornado is a fantastic boat, but it is not feasable as an Olympic class.  It is just too expensive and too exclusive.  To be honest I really do think that the Olympics should be sailed in true one designs, rather than restriced classes like the Tornado, or Star etc. Otherwise we may as well do the keelboat sailing in TP52's, great boat, awesome spectacle and close racing (oh and they cost millions, but hey, money is no object, right?!), sorry its a little sarcastic, but i hope you can see my point. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 7:19pm
If you check out the ISAF annual reports the F18 has a lot of boats in a few rich western countries and none anywhere else. Its international distribution is piss poor compared to the Tornado. The T is in 32 countries, the F18 in 18, and 6 of those aren't properly organised.

I hear a lot of talk about how the F18 will be so much cheaper than the T in the Olympics, but not much evidence to suggest that is the case.

F18 enthusisasts should be careful what they wish for: I suspect Olympics would kill the class. If there was a chosen model all the elite sailors would sail the current chosen Olympic model, and other builders would dump the class. And costs would almost certainly escalate dramatically as they do with Olympic boats. And if there wasn't a chosen model, well, the sky would be the limit for costs...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 7:27pm

Originally posted by Phil eltringham

I To be honest I really do think that the Olympics should be sailed in true one designs, rather than restriced classes like the Tornado, or Star etc. 

Both the Star and the Tornado are one-designs. See their respective class rules. There have been no restricted or development classes in the Olympics for several decades now.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Phil eltringham

I To be honest I really do think that the Olympics should be sailed in true one designs, rather than restriced classes like the Tornado, or Star etc. 

Both the Star and the Tornado are one-designs. See their respective class rules. There have been no restricted or development classes in the Olympics for several decades now.

I think he means SMOD ...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Phil eltringham

I To be honest I really do think that the Olympics should be sailed in true one designs, rather than restriced classes like the Tornado, or Star etc. 

Both the Star and the Tornado are one-designs. See their respective class rules. There have been no restricted or development classes in the Olympics for several decades now.

I think he means SMOD ...

 

Depends on your definition of a one design

The T is was designed with tolerances to allow home build, also the sail plan has limits on sizes and certain measurements, but the sails cannot be considered one design, I'd expect there are many differences; Yes Spi's agre moving in one direction.  But "white" sails, sheeting sysems are very different.  Some Hull tolerances are 5mm+ (I believe); Mast is CURRENTLY SMOD.

T is not one design.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 7:13am

"OD" stands for "one-design". If it stood for "one-manufacturer" it would be "OM".

The first two sentences in the Tornado class rules http://www.tornado.org/uploads/documents/2007%20Internationa l%20Tornado%20Class%20Rules.pdf  say:

INTRODUCTION

This is a one-design class. The intention of these rules is to ensure that theboats are as alike as possible in all respects affecting performance.

Any OD class that allows more than more manufacturer has to include tolerances in the class rules. Otherwise how could you possibly build boats from different moulds? At least this means there are defined tolerances, rather than leaving the required consistency solely up to the manufacturer, as some SMOD class rules do.

In a nutshell, "one design" means that the class rules refer to a set of plans and measurements, whereas "restricted" and "development" class rules only define a required set of  measurements.

 



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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 8:28am
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

The first two sentences in the Tornado class rules http://www.tornado.org/uploads/documents/2007%20Internationa l%20Tornado%20Class%20Rules.pdf  say:

INTRODUCTION

This is a one-design class. The intention of these rules is to ensure that theboats are as alike as possible in all respects affecting performance.

"One design" does not mean "Single manufacturer one design" and any OD class that allows more than more manufacturer has to include tolerances in the class rules. Otherwise how could you possibly build boats from different moulds?

In a nutshell, "one design" means that the class rules refer to a set of plans and measurements, whereas "restricted" and "development" class rules only define a required set of  measurements.

 

 

I'd suggest that's T Spin.

The boat has hull tolerances. 

The rig has measurement points, look at the pirctures of the fleet, sail shapes are different. 

Sheeting systems are different.

 

I'd admit that the hulls are ALMOST one design, but they are not.  A Marstrom Hull is a different shape from an Eales hull. 

 

Now, the MAST is currently SMOD. 

 

 

In my book, one design is wheer moulds are all the same, but can be made by anyone, sails are controlled to the point where  they are all the same, but can be made by anyone etc.....

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 8:41am

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

In my book, one design is wheer moulds are all the same, but can be made by anyone, sails are controlled to the point where  they are all the same, but can be made by anyone etc.....

Outside the realm of nanotechnology, no two objects are "the same". You need tolerances specified to say how different they can be.

"One design" means the class rules refer to a set of plans. That's all. There is no implication that the boats will be identical. Just how similar they will be is down to the way the class rules are then written, or often in the case of a SMOD, the consistency of the manufacturing processes.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 8:54am
Stefan is exactly right. One Design is precisely that: one *Design*.

Look at it as who gets the design royalties. In the case of the Tornado there is one set of drawings, one designer, one set of royalties. In the case of the F18 for instance there are many designers, and different people get the fee for the different designs.
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