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bowwave59
Newbie Joined: 28 Sep 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 5 |
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Topic: Did ISAF make the right decision? Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 11:00am |
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i think the cats will be back in the 2016 games, but as the F18 cat class. They just want to get rid of the Tornado £30,000 an expensive boat thats had the monopoly to long. F18's are in most clubs, around £10,000 with 3 main types from nacra, hobie and capricorn and is the largest growing class with a greater pool of top sailors to choose from.
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Phil eltringham
Really should get out more Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: England/Hitchin Online Status: Offline Posts: 1105 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 5:03pm | ||
I opologise for my exageration of the sparcity of the UK Tornado fleet, but looking at the ISAF rankings only 3 of those teams were in a positon to qualify for China, and the UK (along with maybe France) are definately the exception rather than the rule when it comes to populating the top of the rankings. looking through the whole list (all 82) there are very few represented countries that would would not be classed as 'western' or 'first world'. Although this may represent the worldwide spread of the class, it does not represent the worldwide spread of cat sailing, let alone sailing at all (the F18 may well be little better at the moment, i don't know, but it has a far better chance of spreading, costing half as much). And that is my main point, the Tornado is a fantastic boat, but it is not feasable as an Olympic class. It is just too expensive and too exclusive. To be honest I really do think that the Olympics should be sailed in true one designs, rather than restriced classes like the Tornado, or Star etc. Otherwise we may as well do the keelboat sailing in TP52's, great boat, awesome spectacle and close racing (oh and they cost millions, but hey, money is no object, right?!), sorry its a little sarcastic, but i hope you can see my point.
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 7:19pm | ||
If you check out the ISAF annual reports the F18 has a lot of boats in a few rich western countries and none anywhere else. Its international distribution is piss poor compared to the Tornado. The T is in 32 countries, the F18 in 18, and 6 of those aren't properly organised.
I hear a lot of talk about how the F18 will be so much cheaper than the T in the Olympics, but not much evidence to suggest that is the case. F18 enthusisasts should be careful what they wish for: I suspect Olympics would kill the class. If there was a chosen model all the elite sailors would sail the current chosen Olympic model, and other builders would dump the class. And costs would almost certainly escalate dramatically as they do with Olympic boats. And if there wasn't a chosen model, well, the sky would be the limit for costs... |
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Stefan Lloyd
Really should get out more Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 7:27pm | ||
Both the Star and the Tornado are one-designs. See their respective class rules. There have been no restricted or development classes in the Olympics for several decades now. |
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Guest
Newbie Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 10:13pm | ||
I think he means SMOD ... |
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Scooby_simon
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 26 Dec 07 at 11:35pm | ||
Depends on your definition of a one design The T is was designed with tolerances to allow home build, also the sail plan has limits on sizes and certain measurements, but the sails cannot be considered one design, I'd expect there are many differences; Yes Spi's agre moving in one direction. But "white" sails, sheeting sysems are very different. Some Hull tolerances are 5mm+ (I believe); Mast is CURRENTLY SMOD. T is not one design. |
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Stefan Lloyd
Really should get out more Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 7:13am | ||
"OD" stands for "one-design". If it stood for "one-manufacturer" it would be "OM". The first two sentences in the Tornado class rules http://www.tornado.org/uploads/documents/2007%20Internationa l%20Tornado%20Class%20Rules.pdf say: INTRODUCTION This is a one-design class. The intention of these rules is to ensure that theboats are as alike as possible in all respects affecting performance. Any OD class that allows more than more manufacturer has to include tolerances in the class rules. Otherwise how could you possibly build boats from different moulds? At least this means there are defined tolerances, rather than leaving the required consistency solely up to the manufacturer, as some SMOD class rules do. In a nutshell, "one design" means that the class rules refer to a set of plans and measurements, whereas "restricted" and "development" class rules only define a required set of measurements.
Edited by Stefan Lloyd |
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Scooby_simon
Really should get out more Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 8:28am | ||
I'd suggest that's T Spin. The boat has hull tolerances. The rig has measurement points, look at the pirctures of the fleet, sail shapes are different. Sheeting systems are different.
I'd admit that the hulls are ALMOST one design, but they are not. A Marstrom Hull is a different shape from an Eales hull.
Now, the MAST is currently SMOD.
In my book, one design is wheer moulds are all the same, but can be made by anyone, sails are controlled to the point where they are all the same, but can be made by anyone etc..... |
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Stefan Lloyd
Really should get out more Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 8:41am | ||
Outside the realm of nanotechnology, no two objects are "the same". You need tolerances specified to say how different they can be. "One design" means the class rules refer to a set of plans. That's all. There is no implication that the boats will be identical. Just how similar they will be is down to the way the class rules are then written, or often in the case of a SMOD, the consistency of the manufacturing processes. |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 27 Dec 07 at 8:54am | ||
Stefan is exactly right. One Design is precisely that: one *Design*.
Look at it as who gets the design royalties. In the case of the Tornado there is one set of drawings, one designer, one set of royalties. In the case of the F18 for instance there are many designers, and different people get the fee for the different designs. |
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