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mike ellis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mike ellis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 07 at 11:28am
Originally posted by Andymac

I was of the same opinion as Mike Ellis, that without Boat X, I would have made the gap cleanly, and it was only by the actions of boat X that I was 'compelled' to break a rule(s)

i didnt say that!!! dont drag me into this.

600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote FreshScum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 07 at 6:19pm

Originally posted by JimC


I think I'd have hailed protest, grabbed all the sail numbers I could and hoped the other parties would identify X. You can protest any boat for anything, its down to the jury to work out what happened in the room, so I'd probably have protested the nearet boat I could identify for something mildly spurious if X still hadn't been identified when I wrote out the form.

Jim, is this really you? All your other posts are fairly reasonable, but this last bit seems to say that if you can't identify the boat that fouled, to avoid you being chucked, you'd make up a protest against the closest boat you could. Which is a pretty sh*tty thing to do.

If there aren't on-the-water umpires, sailing is supposed to be a self-policing sport with the room as a last resort.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 07 at 7:08pm
I think what Jim was suggesting was to protest someone to get in the room, in the hope that the 'real' problem would be uncovered and sorted out, rather than 'mugging' some poor sod for a laugh.
Not sure if the room should be a last resort. The problem is if no one ever protests you end up in a situation where people just fall out with people because of a lack of resolution, and some people continue to flout the rules because they know no one will call them on it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote FreshScum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 07 at 7:53pm

I think I have re-understood what Jim meant. Apologies!

If there is an infringement, you call them on it. Hopefully they do their turns, if not you chat to them afterwards and hopefully they retire. If not, you take them to the room. So it is the last part of the process? Do it a couple of times and people know you're serious.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 07 at 9:32pm
Originally posted by FreshScum

Which is a pretty sh*tty thing to do.

That's because you're personalising the thing too much, which is what causes so much grief... The idea of a protest is to sort out what was going on, exonerate the innocent and work out who was at fault. Its not going to end in gaol for goodness sake...

Somehow you need to find out who X was... You can trust the jury to sort out things as well as possible... In this situation there should have been a hearing. If I couldn't identify X I would try and find out, but if it came to it I would be tempted to go and see the boat outside X, say "Look I'm putting you down for not giving X room to let me through, I strongly suspect it wasn't your fault at all, so apologies for the inconvenience, but there needs to be a hearing on this. BTW, can you identify X".

Of course you do need to have hailed everyone at the time, otherwise its just going to be thrown out anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 07 at 8:04am
Originally posted by mike ellis

Originally posted by Andymac

I was of the same opinion as Mike Ellis, that without Boat X, I would have made the gap cleanly, and it was only by the actions of boat X that I was 'compelled' to break a rule(s)

i didnt say that!!! dont drag me into this.

Sorry, genuine mistake at 3 in the morning!

I followed it up with another posting straight away (not very well, apparently) to try and correct my mistake. I'll have to work out how you can isolate small excerpts in a quote, then that wouldn't have happened. Any tips?

Back to the debate, seems I have stirred up something here.

Just for the record, there was no doubt whatsoever that I had an overlap on X.

If I had a hint that X was about to attempt something so outragous, I would have prewarned him. Of course my contemplation to sail into the gap, prior to boat X transgression, did not account for boat X actually being there as well.

Since I was forced to gybe into the gap by X, then surely I was compelled to break a rule, irrespective of what I was 'thinking' immediately before X  gybed in front of me, leaving me no other option. Maybe if I hadn't started off by stating I was looking to take the gap.......

 

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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 07 at 8:24am
The thing I find most disturbing Andy is that you were sailing a Laser.....

However if X was clearly to leeward of you and you had an inside overlap then he is most definitely in the wrong (remember you do not have to anticipate that another boat is going to break the rules and only need to take action when it is blatantly obvious that they are).

As for me I am always aware of the sail nos. of the boats around me (the last 3 digits on a Laser is usually enough) if I do not know who I am racing with.

Depending on the exact circumstances I would definitely have DSQ'd X (that sounds like a no brainer). Whether or not you would have been ok (had you not done turns) would be a matter for discussion with onus on you to prove you could have got through cleanly.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 07 at 1:28pm

How I wished I could have identified boat X!

As you can appreciate the whole incident happened in a matter of seconds...

I was more intent on avoiding any significant contact between boats. As soon as I gybed to initially avoid X, I was then on windward side of my boat, with his sail shielded by mine. I was distracted by the protestations from the leeward group of boats preventing me from identifying X. Ten seconds later as boats had tacked off the other way, I'm left looking at 3 or 4 vela grey lasers, which are impossible to tell apart.

Having had time to think about my actions, it does raise the question whether I am at all culpable. Granted if I had gybed first into the gap before X, then I would have been in a very difficult situation of proving that I would have got through in the abscence of X. However, X gybed before me (breaking a rule) and left me the only option to gybe as well. I 'may' have been able to sail to windward of the mark and left X to get through without fouling leeward boats, or persist with the gap and 'squeeze' through touching mark and scuffing gunwhales. Given that there was minor contact, which, had I sacrificed myself going wrong side of mark may have been avoided, I decided to take a penalty. If it had been significantly windier, I probably wouldn't have contemplated getting though the gap, risking serious damage to all concerned.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 07 at 2:27pm
Shame you didn't sink a few.....just kidding.

With regards to the contact if boat X took no avoiding action (given you had rights) then even more reason to get them protested.

You could have talked to some of the other helms on shore and tried to find out who it was after the race (or at the finish).

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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 07 at 6:01pm

In all the kefuffle, all of the protestations were directed at me, I don't think anybody realised the idendity of X at the time, he managed to slip away anonymously. Shame really, he could do that all over again, no lesson learnt.

At the end of the day, I could have gained 4-5 places at the mark if it all went well, instead I probably lost 2-3 more places doing turns. I guess it was a calculated risk which didn't pay. Just a bit miffed that it wasn't all down to me....

It wasn't a war, and nobody died, at least my concience is clear.

Lasers love them or hate them, you do get close fleet racing on a big scale.

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