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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Inside overlaps
    Posted: 20 Jul 07 at 4:56am

Where do you think I stand on this one?

Laser fleet racing, in force 2-3, approaching leeward mark on run;

Group of six or seven boats clear ahead of me, about to round mark....Obvious to me that as the inside boat gybes to round, that all the other boats will also gybe and fall to leeward and outside...... leaving an inviting gap inside for me to gybe clean through on...... Only that another boat (X) outside of me, that I DO have an overlap on, gybes onto me and goes for the gap as well.....Whilst one of us IMHO could have got through cleanly, both can't! I touch mark, and bump gunwhales, with  boat X, who in turn bumps gunwhales with the other earlier group of boats now to leeward.

Who do you think is in the wrong?

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 07 at 8:54am
I'd probably chuck both of you... Case 63 makes it clear that going for a gap with no rights is at your own risk.
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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 07 at 9:04am
Did you make it clear to boat X that you were wanting water at the mark?
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FreshScum View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote FreshScum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 07 at 10:50am

It could be argued that if the other boat hadn't been there, you wouldn't have broken a rule. He broke a rule, not giving you room, and forced you to break a rule, contact with the mark. He also broke a rule, hitting the boat outside of him which it doesnt sound like he was entitled to room from.

Because he forced you to break a rule, you then weren't in the wrong.

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mike ellis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mike ellis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 07 at 2:04pm
if the outside boat had an overlap with the group in front and you had an overlap with him then the rules say that you are all overlapped dont they?
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elmo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote elmo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 07 at 2:44pm

Even if you are giong for a dodgy gap, you still have to give room to the boats overlapped inside you.

So that outside boat isnt allowed to shut you out, as you have rights for water over him.  But you would both be on very thin ground - to win a protest you would need evidence that you would have fitted through had the other boat non infringed you.

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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 07 at 3:11am

Well thank you all,

This is how I saw it;

Jim C is entirely right to point out case 63.

Boat X DIDN'T have an inside overlap on the group of boats ahead (Mike Ellis).

I didn't call for water from boat X, as I was clearly inside overlapped AND both of us on starboard gybe, him being windward boat as well. Boat X had every opportunity to sail round the outside of the group in front and should have been prepared to give me room for the same option as well. I don't think you have to anticipate another boat breaking a rule(s). Had I called for water this could have easily been misinterpreted by the group in front as calling them, which I wasn't entitled to do! (lukepiewalker).

In the event, outside (overlapped) windward boat X, gybed onto port in front of me. He must have broken a rule there! I gybed onto port to miss him, which took me into the gap at the mark, only being 1 3/4 boats wide, there was an inevitable bump of gunwhales. I must say at this point, if the wind conditions had been much stronger I would have been forced to duck above the mark to avoid serious collision between boats.

I chose to strike the mark (passing it the correct side), in order to give all the boats to leeward as much room as possible to avoid contact. Boat X was sandwiched between me and the right of way boats to leeward.

I was of the same opinion as Mike Ellis, that without Boat X, I would have made the gap cleanly, and it was only by the actions of boat X that I was 'compelled' to break a rule(s)

In the heat of it all, one of the leeward, right of way boats (rightly feeling aggrieved) focussed on me as the transgressor, and called 'protest'. Boat X meanwhile sailed off scot free!

Bearing in mind case 63, and as elmo points out, the onus would have been on me to prove I would have passed gap cleanly (a very difficult thing to prove), I begrudgingly took a 2 turn penalty to exonerate myself.

I never did identify boat X.

NOW should the leeward, right of way boat have protested boat X in the first instance rather than me, since it was he that made contact, rather than me?

 

 

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Andymac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 07 at 3:20am
Originally posted by FreshScum

It could be argued that if the other boat hadn't been there, you wouldn't have broken a rule. He broke a rule, not giving you room, and forced you to break a rule, contact with the mark. He also broke a rule, hitting the boat outside of him which it doesnt sound like he was entitled to room from.

Because he forced you to break a rule, you then weren't in the wrong.

Aha, sorry, new to this. I should have attributed one quote to FreshScum. Well it is 3.15 am in the morning, and before anybody says anything, I'm not a saddo on forum this time in the morning. I'm working nights... it's a bit slow at the moment.

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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 07 at 10:53am
You're right about not anticipating another boat breaking a rule. My question was really one of how much of an overlap you had, ie whether there was any doubt about it. Sometimes a shout of 'don't go in there' doesn't go amiss, just an assertion sort of arrangement. Although it sounds like t' other boat was hell bent of going there regardless of your position....
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 07 at 10:58am
think you were right to do the turns. I wouldn't be suprised if X' argument was that you never had water, whichwas why you didn't hail so if you had bailed out he would have been legal.

I think I'd have hailed protest, grabbed all the sail numbers I could and hoped the other parties would identify X. You can protest any boat for anything, its down to the jury to work out what happened in the room, so I'd probably have protested the nearet boat I could identify for something mildly spurious if X still hadn't been identified when I wrote out the form.
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