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hurricane View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote hurricane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 04 at 10:16pm

i met a guy who said he sailed a hurricane single handed quite a lot

he said it was fun up till when the gusts started to hit

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 04 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by hurricane

i met a guy who said he sailed a hurricane single handed quite a lot

he said it was fun up till when the gusts started to hit

 

But was he a 'large gent'

I'm 'only' 12 1/2 stone.......

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tornado_ALIVE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 04 at 10:46am

Firstly I like Granite's referance to a sports car.  Many call a Hyundai Tiburon or Interga Type R for example, a sports car ........    But realy!!!!!!!

OK, I see a true skiff as only the 12s, 14s, 16s, 18s + the historicals ie 6, 8, 10 ect to 18s.

Skiffs as far as I see it is a class name used for these boats that originated in the early 1900s in Australia.  ie 16 foot skiff.  The boats are not known by any other name.

A Cherub is a Cherub (Dinghy) and a 12 foot skiff is a 12 foot skiff.

A 29er is a skiff trainer but not a skiff.....  It is a 29er.

A 49er is not called a skiff, it is a 49er...... Dinghy.  A very fast high performance dinghy but a dinghy non the less.

The Skiff is an important part of Australian sailing history and I feel the term skiff is thrown about to readly.  A 49er I feel is not a skiff for example but is skiff like in some aspects.

Call a skiff a skiff and other classes buy their class names.

Feel free to flame away

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Skiffman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 04 at 3:39pm

I think that the 29er and 49er are definatly skiffs!!!!

But don't Cherubs and 12 foot skiffs compete in the same worlds?!?! So how can a cherub not be a skiff.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 04 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Skiffman

[

But don't Cherubs and 12 foot skiffs compete in the same worlds?!?! So how can a cherub not be a skiff.




Its not unknown for Cherubs to be rigged as Twelves and sail in the 12 Interdoms, and there's kind of a standing invite - but then in box rule classes if it measures you can sail - but it doesn't happen every time. There's a UK Cherub rigged as a Twelve about, Draycote I believe it lives at - and its quite a machine. I've had a little yacht in it and it has a huge grin index:-)

As for what's a skiff. A akiff is I guess one of the Sydney classes which were traditionally called skiffs, which were originally sailed by working folk, not the yacht classes, and which usually have multiple rigs. In current terms they are for sure the 12s, 16s and 18s, the 14s to an extent. I'd not claim a Cherub to be one but...

I think you can usefully talk about a skiff type, which is a boat that in design philosophy etc would be similar to the actual skiffs of its era. The Cherub since 1970ish is that I'd say, the 49er and 29er too, with the slight caveat that the sliffs tend to be quite short for the crew weight they carry, whereas the Bethwaite boats run long and thin. Also the NZ Javelin and R and a bunch of other Aus classes.

On that basis I'd say the I14s up to the 80s weren't skiff types, nor were pre Farr/Bethwaite/Bowler era Cherubs. The I14s of now are, the 5 Tonner not a hope!

In singlehander the word has different meanings - ie skiff Moth is as opposed to scow.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 04 at 2:28am
Originally posted by Skiffman

I think that the 29er and 49er are definatly skiffs!!!!

But don't Cherubs and 12 foot skiffs compete in the same worlds?!?! So how can a cherub not be a skiff.

 


With respect, Skiffman, surely the definition must be based on something more than "I think" or "it looks cool and goes fast".

From the very first 12' skiff Interdominion (there is no worlds for 12s) they allowed dinghies to compete - but only because the 12' skiffs wanted to beat up on them to show how fast they were. In fact, the dinghies won, and the skiffies were REALLY peeved off; it got quite nasty around the club because no-one called the dinghies (sorta like old Cherubs) skiffs and they wanted skiffs to win. They knew that skiffs were different from dinghies.

The same thing happened when the Cherubs started racing; the 12'er guys normally speak of "skiffs" and of Cherubs, racing with the skiffs. Maybe it's like Hobie Tigers and F18s, the other F18s can race with the Tigers but that doesn't mean they ARE Tigers.

In the second Interdominion, the rules allowed a cat to enter and clean up. So unless we'll call a cat a skiff, we can't go on what is allowed to race in the Interdominions to rule what a "skiff" is.

Tornado Alive sails 18s and other skiffs, and other classes that are claiming to be skiffs but aren't, so he has a good viewpoint. I'm actually willing to call a 49er a skiff, but hmmmm, maybe I should apply one of my own rules and say that in the bar and the Squaddie or Belmont 16s and see if I survive.....

I just realised, reading Jim's post, one probable reason why the term is viewed  differently up north and down here.  From a northern hemisphere viewpoint, the Cherub, the Javelin and other southern dinghies only arrived there in the late '60s, and they were lighter than the "normal" UK dinghies, so they seem a lot like a skiff. Then there was the big noise about skiff types when the B18/49er/5000/Boss/4000/B14 arrived, and the "skiff" tag fitted the new wave.

But from an Australian/NZ viewpoint, the dinghies actually lead the way towards the modern lightweight boat. The skiffs were lumbering round-bilged overweight non-trap beasts until dinghy influences like the NZ IA and Z and I-14 dinghies, the Gwen 12, the Cherub, the FD, the Sharpie, and the VJ arrived to show the skiffies what you could do with trapezes, lightweight hard chined hulls, efficient rigs etc. The 12s were influenced by G12s and Cherubs, the 14s were influenced by VJs, the 16s were influenced by G12s and VJ-type 14s, and the 18s were influenced by FDs and Sharpies. In all cases, the lumbering old skiffs were killed by the dinghies.

There was actually a lot of venom directed at those who  brought the lightweight dinghy-style designs into the skiff classes. In every case, the skiffies told the lightweights to go away. Now, of course all of this is ancient history, but it shows that the real "skiff breakthrough" actually came from dinghies, and was then pushed onto a rather resisting, grumpy and conservative skiff world.

So here we didn't historically think of a light dinghy (ie Cherub) as a skiff-style boat; in fact it's more correct to say that the modern skiff is a Cherub (etc) -style boat, because the Cherub/FD/G12/Sharpie/Z/VJ dinghies really created the lightweight skiff - not the other way around.

The Kiwi R Class is called a skiff these days, but it was called a dinghy when it was the most advanced dinghy in the worlds (ie 35kg hulls, two crew both trapping off racks, fully-battened high-aspect rig, all by 1974....).

Anyway, sorry for blabbing on, but this thread has really reminded me of something that I must highlight in a little project I'm working on. Thanks all .



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Phil eltringham View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Nov 04 at 9:36am
The word 'Skiff' is simply a hull design philosophy, it can't be defined by numbers.  The term originally described rowing boats so anything to do with sails is outside its meaning.  It is obvious that we all have a very similar idea of what we consider a 'skiff style' dinghy.  Surely as long as we all know what eachother are talking about its fine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote kissmyrs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 2:22pm
I was told back in th day that skiff mean't a boat that is designed to plane upwind and down.
 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 9:44pm
I must apologise firstly for writing so much, and then I'll stop posting on this thread. However I thought I might mention that (after interviewing many skiff designers) there doesn't seem to be any really distinct skiff "hull philosophy"; the 12s are very different from the 16s, the 18s are different from both. Seeing that they have been development classes, they've had an enormous range of shapes - everything from scows to skinny (and beamy) "knifing" displacement hulls.

And some people have been speaking of "skiff-style" National 12s, which seems to show what happens when terms just start getting thrown around. How a boat with no 90ft2 of sail can get compared to a skiff, when the comparable skiff carries about 700 ft2, is strange indeed. It shows how a term can become rather meaningless quite quickly.

I'm no designer, but after studying the history (to the stage of ringing around many of the great sailors (current and old), having a library of designs going back to the early years of this century, going to the central library to go through newspaper and magazine articles of the 1800s) AND talking to most of the designers (new and old), there seems that there is no "skiff philosophy" in hull designs - or not more than there is a "British philosophy" that covers everything from Norfolk Punts to Int. Cadets and RS 800s. Look at a 12 v an 18' skiff; one is round-bilged normally while the other has chines, one has wings while the other doesn't, the B18s have Vee sections while the 12 has U sections.

You can't often just take a philosophy from one skiff class and whack it on another, it seems. Russell Bowler had major problems trying to take his 12' skiff ideas and put them into an 18' skiff. whereas Bruce Farr had no problems taking his ideas from the 14' Javelin dinghy to the 18' skiff. Similarly, the current 16 shape came not from the traditional skiffs, but from the NS14s which have no trap, no kite, only 100 ft2 of sail area, and are definitely NOT skiffs. So the current 16 "hull philosophy" came from a totally different style (in terms of shape, dynamics, etc) to the then-existing 16' skiff idea. Many also say that the post-Murray/Coxon/Hewish 12 style came from the NS14 - dinghy to skiff. Again, it underlines (to me) that there's no separate "skiff hull philosophy".

It's a valid point about the dictionary definition, but can we really use a dictionary to define sailing terms? I don't think you'll find a "blade" headsail in a dictionary, or a definition of "assy" that includes spinnakers, or "dork" that includes spinnaker poles?

The numbers do, in my looking at them so far, provide a pretty clear idea of what a skiff is, and it's an idea that has been working for the "real" skiffs (and I think, only for the real skiffs) through history. I know it's only my idea, though, so I'll shut up after one more par.

Rich O - 505s plane upwind, so do Int. Canoes, FDs, boats like Tasars sailed low and fast, Norfolk Punts (perhaps) and they are not skiffs. 12s may not "plane" upwind (haven't sailed one in ages but I think they just displace fast), 16s are "knifing" sort of boats (a bit like Moths) although I haven't sailed on for 3 years so I may be wrong), Historical skiffs don't plane upwind. So not all skiffs plane upwind, and many non-skiffs do. So it can't be planing upwind and down that makes a boat a skiff.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 11:30pm

Chris 249, don't stop, its interesting .  However I can't help feel the history is not that important. 

For me its what people mean when they use the term skiff.  And here in the UK I think they mean assymmetric, high powered, trapeze (or wings or both), upwind planner that gets many of its features from recent 18 foot skiffs.  Its not important that they have all the features of a 18 footer but anything it shares in common is likely to increase probablility of being called a skiff.  So I guess I should also include self tacking jib, open type foredeck, fully battened sails, self draining, dagger board and apparent wind ability. Now I know some boats have some of these features, take a 5o5, this certainly will plane upwind, use the apparent wind and is high powered but it takes its design themes not from current 18 footers but from more conventional dinghies and so is unlikely to be called a skiff.

One of the characteristics of skiffs seems to be they are optimised for sailing in stronger winds and as a consequence are relatively poor when it gets light.  Would we all agree that a B14 is a skiff, if so it exemplifies this last characteristic quite well?  It has a huge sail area and yet goes very badly in light winds - a 5 oh would thrash it in 5knots of wind but it would thrash a 5 oh in 15.

I guess you (Chris) would not consider either a skiff, but I think that many in the UK would agree with me - a B14 is and a 5o5 isn't.  Whatever you think it has been interesting to learn so much about the development of boats.

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