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Dinghies in 2020 |
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Stefan Lloyd
Really should get out more Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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Topic: Dinghies in 2020 Posted: 16 Apr 07 at 7:24am |
Fleet size makes a difference. If Fred FrontEnd and Terry Tailender race in a 15 boat fleet and then in a 45 boat fleet, the difference in their times will be much larger in the bigger fleet. This is because in a large fleet, in effect you "queue up" at mark roundings and also because bad air is harder to avoid. |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 16 Apr 07 at 9:41am |
But I think it still goes back to definitions. Lets say that in fleet A the boats are never more than half a boat length apart, but there are virtually never any place changes after the first half of the first beat. In contrast in fleet B boats are rarely closer than 5 boat lengths apart, but there are places being won and lost on every leg of the course. Which fleet is really having closer boat on boat *racing*? The one that is physically closer together in a procession, or the one in which the result is in doubt right to the finish line?
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Stefan Lloyd
Really should get out more Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 16 Apr 07 at 10:20am |
It is physical proximity that causes the RRS to kick in, so highly tactical boat-on-boat racing only applies when boats are physically close. I'm unpersuaded that in practice, classes exist where boats are physically very close but place changes are rare, upwind at least. |
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Chris 249
Really should get out more Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 16 Apr 07 at 11:16pm |
As far as I can see, Stefan is right about the fact that a bigger fleet spreads the tailenders/mid fleeters more, which does make it hard to calculate which class is "really" closer. I was thinking about looking at club handicaps (personal handicaps in OD classes, using sailors who are nationally ranked at various levels) because that may mean that dirty air and big fleets are less of a factor.
I'd also agree with Stefan that it's physical proximity that counts as far as "highly tactical boat on boat racing", as keelboaters and conventional dinghy sailors understand it. However, I definitely notice that classes like the Lasers have so much close and loose covering that the places (at the front end) change much less than you would think given how close they are. However, that's not a procession, it's just the fact that skilled sailors who sail in these situation all the time are very good at fending off repeated close-quarter attacks. Using the Olympics does give both times (although surprisingly, not every race in 2004 has the overall time recorded) and mark rounding places as a measure. So do people agree that it would be reasonable to look at; a) the number of times the sailors in 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th and 50% of the fleet have a place change on a leg (determined at the mark roundings). b) the % of elapsed time of the sailors in 5th, 10th, 15th and 50% of the fleet, compared to the winner. c) the distance on the water this corresponds to. I think we can work out how fast the 470 for example is moving on average. If it is used as a base I can obviously work out the distance for other classes. What "outliers" should be thrown out of the study? There was one race in Athens where a 49er bounced up about 24 places in two legs to win. That skews the whole 49er scores of place changes quite markedly. It was a fluky regatta - is it reasonable to chuck such races out (and at what divergence from the norm) or can it be assumed that 20+ races from two Games is enough data to sort things out? What about the fact that 49ers sail short courses? Would this study have much credibility? |
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 17 Apr 07 at 11:37am |
Surely the venue makes as much, if not more, difference than the boat? I grew up sailing on rivers, where you might have 30 Fireflies packed into a river 80 feet wide or less. You then put the same 30 fireflies on the sea, and the sideways spread down a reach would have put them out of the river and onto the main road if they had been on the river. They will bunch at the mark again, but the outlying boats would still be on the shore if trying to get round the same mark on the river. Upwind, the boats will split tacks on the sea, and only meet when they cross, usually, but on the river, one tack will be massively favoured, and the shifts will see boats coming together far more often. So I would guess that the boats which would win the "closest racing" argument would be the ones which sail on small puddles and rivers. If you want to take that out of the equation, then you would have to somehow divide the sailing area by the number of boats racing?! I'm pretty sure that the "which boat has more tactical racing" argument awhile back is, infact, very similar to this one. |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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MerlinMags
Admin Group Joined: 19 Mar 04 Location: UK, Guildford Online Status: Offline Posts: 585 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Jan 09 at 2:13pm |
Something that is hard to imagine will ever be possible...
I hope the next 10 years of innovation creates a boat that can be rigged (from the road trailer) in less than 2 minutes. No I don't mean a Laser, I mean something like a Merlin or I14! |
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Guest
Newbie Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Jan 09 at 3:04pm |
Depends how you measure that ... the MPS was the second most popular trapeze class in the UK nationals attendance table |
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radixon
Really should get out more Joined: 27 Oct 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2407 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Jan 09 at 3:11pm |
Ah ha, right is that a challenge then Mags? What about at Ally Pally all Y+Y Forum members rig a 200 from road base to sailing in the quickest time possible. So one has to untie lighting board, another 3 put the mast up, 2 get the jib and main rigged bla bla bla............... |
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JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Jan 09 at 3:28pm |
At the very least partly because the popularity of trapeze classes has collapsed compared to 15 years ago... Rigging time is always an interesting one because its very much down to very low level detailed design. My last Cherub was pretty quick to rig because I built several things into the setup - hooks for loops of strings rather than shackles whereever possible, captive pins on shackles that did need to be undone where needed, and no split rings that need to be undone every trip, and most important of all, worked out a rigging system that meant the minimum of things needed to be undone - kite halyard staying threaded into both mast and boat for instance. The current Canoe, which travels less, is set up more for quick rigging from the club and has some different emphasis. Edited by JimC |
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Guest
Newbie Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 19 Jan 09 at 3:50pm |
I wonder why people like trapezing less these days? Which trapeze classes have crumpled? |
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