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Wrighty View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 Mar 07 at 6:16pm
 As the merlins are now faster also the phantom,the opinion of some sailers at some clubs now say its a "waste of time now". This is not helping club racing, I for one now travel to opens, and posted Winter meeting and sailing venues 07-08 to generate class racing and help turnouts.Most of the clubs around the midlands are a shadow from years ago. I think some clubs will have to go if things continue.It is the same people keeping these clubs together, if they leave ? chris 30 year around the midlands.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 07 at 6:22pm
Well if clubs posted there returns then they would secure the future of handicap dinghy sailing! You are wrong though wrighty, handicap racing is still the backbone of most od the uk's sailing clubs if you want to race in fleet racing then you have to travel arround the circuit.  Phantoms and Merlins do have keen handicaps i have sailed both for years!, but to be honest with you the standard of sailor that  sails Phantoms and merlins is very high (apart from me), unless you are calling the sailors of these classes pot hunters?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 07 at 6:26pm
Merlins dominated the recent winter series at CYC, the reason? they deserved to! well sailed, by good sailors, and most of the front guys had lashed out the major dough you need to on a decent Merlin

Merlinboy's comment that clubs need to post their returns is spot on - but can't help wandering if there's a better way to do this in 2007 than the curent system? something viewable online and more transparent would be great
Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wrighty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 07 at 6:31pm

I think after sailing a laser5000 carbon rigs should be standard and merlins are great if you have got a spare 10000 in the bank. handicap racing is taking over as too many classes now, the merlins do not control their handicap, bigger sail area means faster boat, looks great, like one please. no returns, paperwork  uurrrr no thanks

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 07 at 6:33pm
Thats right getafix, there should be an RYA online results system so all RYA registered clubs post the results once a week this would also benefit dinghy racers because they could check on the database throughout the week on there current standings in series etc.  Having this kind of online message/results board could keep clubs up to date with py changes, perhaps weather reports postings of events.  As Getafix says we are in 2007 not 1977 and the Computer and internet dominated world we live in surely Rya etc. should get with the times.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 07 at 6:36pm
Handicap racing is rubbish we all know that but it is the only way smaller club racing sailors can compete with each other, this debate keeps coming up time and time again but other then ersonal handicaping i never here any real solutions, i say just crack on kep sailing and eventually it pays off
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wrighty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 07 at 6:47pm

IV Changed boat, If I stay at my old club I would get a phantpm or merlin, Market forces no. Handicap,does this mean boats with poor py= less boats sold? I like my ent for the kids but on handicap above force 1 no chance .kids grown up now, Iv gone for fun factor to keep me sailing.plus iv eaten too many pies now



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 07 at 10:11pm
There was a presentation on the PY scheme at the RYA clubs conference during the Dinghy show at Alexandra Palace the other week. The main thrusts were, if I recall, that the scheme was only as good as the returns sent in by clubs, and on a quick show of hands it was clear that many clubs (ie the majority) DON'T send in returns. The RYA also seemed keen to promote an easier methodology for clubs to adjust PYs accord to local condtions, and this is now on their website at http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/pys.htm & nbsp;   But don't underestimate how contentious this can be, one delegate to the conference (I can't remember from which club) told the story of how, as a sailing committee rep, he'd been offered physical violence from a parent of a 29er sailor whose handicap had been reduced by the club!


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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 07 at 10:33pm
I do get frustrated about this... people get so wound up about a few points of PY, and 90% of the time it makes no difference at all. If you do your club results its an interesting exercise to pick a class everyone is whinging about, ask for suggested PY, and rework the results...

The last time I did that at my club some Laser sailors were complaining that a Solo, on our slightly more generous club handicap, had won the big club handicap series. So I reworked the results for the standard handicap. The Solo, from being about two points clear, would have lost the series on tie break to an RS400, but would still have easily beaten all the Lasers...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar 07 at 10:57pm

The problem with returns are that even when your club does put them in, very little happens.We have a few past and current nat champs in our handicap fleet, yet no one can get close to not just the top phantom sailor, who admittedly has won a race at last years nats, but also the mid and hind fleet phantom sailors. I get the impression at Merlin clubs the situation is similar. Now I have heard all the arguments that the general standard in those fleets are high, but having got into a Phantom once or twice, I know that they arn't that good. So whats happening with the py's. To our club average the best Phantom guy is sailing around 940-950 on average, the others are normally punching in around 1030-1040, in light weight, carbon rigged boats. If the boat is older, and alli mast, then they seem to come where the skill level on show suggests they would.

These figures are made available by our club sec, also a phantom sailor. Since our club is apparently one of the few that do make returns, how come the numbers have not changed more? and we know that when the guys get in same class boats the differences are not there, why has there not been more movement. The whisper that is going round our club, is that the top and bottom 10% of results are ignored from the calculations. So you have to be a poor Phantom sailor, or a pretty good Ent (open meeting winner standard in our fleet) sailor to get into the calculation. I hope no one is going to tell me that the Ent fleet does not have good quality sailors in it. I hope this is just a chinese whisper!

Now I dont mind not winning on Handicap every week, has only happened once since I joined a Phantom club (they went to the wrong mark) I dont want to put on the weight to sail a phantom, or take out a loan for a new Merlin, but I would like to do better than the average sailors from those fleets when I do sail well. This can't happen at the moment.

I know PY's have always been controversial, and have been happy to be on classes which had good numbers, in certain conditions previously, but the current state, with regard to some classes seems to be extreme, and has been for a few years now. I am sure even the most die hard Phantom sailor would admit that. I just wonder how many years it will take to come even again.

Role on the summer series when we can get back to one design racing again, or I better start eating donuts.

I expect there will be a lot of flack about this post, but certainly the numbers produced at our club support what I have said. I just wonder when the RYA will take the bull by the horns.

Andy Mck

Ent, Ex L4000/L5000/Firefly/Nat 12

 

Andy Mck
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