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Garry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 05 at 7:53pm
It wouldn't be difficult to take the results from the Grafham GP and a few similar events, calculate a set of new handicaps and compare these to the published list. I suspect they would be very similar.

Bruce, what basis would you base your handicap system on and how would you demonstrate it was fair? Look at the discrepencies that occured with the IOR, CHS and whatever the latest measurement based offshore flavour is.

A statistical approach is the soundest way to determine the handicap, its the experiment to collect the data that is crucial. Do we want the RYA to spend sevral thousands (of our money) running a different experiment? Given the stability of the PNs in the system for most classes suggests that the system isn't performing that badly. There is a problem with the development classes but local handicaps could address that, I agree the RYA could do more to promote adjusting handicaps.

If you used a system based on boat design I see two problems: Firstly designs will try to maximise their handicaps and may lead to some oddities and secondly a boat that gets a poor relative handicap will die as a class. I would prefer to see more effort going into adjusting class handicaps at a local level for local conditions.
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Bruce Starbuck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Starbuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 05 at 10:04pm

[QUOTE=Garry]Bruce, what basis would you base your handicap system on and how would you demonstrate it was fair? QUOTE]

It would be based on the current returns system PLUS the opinions of half a dozen selected dinghy sailors sitting in a smokey room with a big pot of coffee on the table. The next year's sailing would demonstrate if it was fair or not.

The current returns-based system is a good start, but it has severe limitations with regard to the ability of the sailors. What we have is not a representation of the relative performances of boats, but of boats and the sailors who sail them. As you can't quantify sailor ability, then I'm forced to think that human opinion should be used to try and take it out of the equation. Normally I'm the last person to advocate more committees, but I can't see any other way to start moving handicaps around a bit more energetically.

I think also that the system needs to revolve around one fixed boat in the centre of the performance spectrum. The laser would be the logical choice because it is universally available and popular, isn't going to die out and has virtually no development. All the other classes should have a rating which is worked out relative to that.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 05 at 12:34am
I thought the returns to the YA included a "Crew Skill Factor" which was supposed to account for sailing ability?

Not that I really know how you assess CSF precisely....I don't know whether I'm a  better sailor in Radials than I am in Windsurfers or Mistrals or Tasars or Int Canoes etc etc, so I can't work out how other people could work out well sailed a Tasar is v a Radial v an IC v a Mistrat etc etc.  Chris Nicholson says he's often surprised by the difficulty of working out (from their past performance and first impressions) how well a new team will go in 49ers; the boat just suits some people more than others of similar backgrounds. So you can't even say "X is a 29er champ and Y was 5th in 29ers, therefore X must be sailing a 49er better than Y is sailing an RS 800"....if you get my drift, can't be bothered to explain it better.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 05 at 10:16pm
Back in the old days, the firefly stayed at 100 and all other classes moved around it. I'm not sure why the system changed, but presumebly the RYA had their reasons. The numbers were revamped (the firefly went to 124) because otherwise the Tornado handicap was getting so low it was silly, and at that point the fixed datum was scrapped.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 05 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by Rupert

at that point the fixed datum was scrapped.

Actually there are five classes whose PY hasn't changed in thirty years, allowing for the changes in the relative numbers. They are Wayfarer, Enterprise, Solo, Heron, Mirror. The GP14 and Laser are close behind, having changed by 1 point the year after the current 4 figure numbers came in. Firefly data for some reason is wildly varianble - the returns fom clubs varies more than most development classes!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote big man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 05 at 3:53pm
do you know how hard working out pys is? i made a programme to do it for my a-levels in IT. It is imensly hard! and to add more confusion by splitting up classes wud perhaps take it too far. but i agree with you about boats changing and going faster it would make fairer racing. but if i use the scorpion class as an example. the old stewart design is often faster on flat water going up wind but the newer design allows for easier plaining and plaining up wind to be accomplished alot easier. the whole subject is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. sure the newer boats are faster but isnt that the same in all clases?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 05 at 7:19pm
Hello,

finally got the computer back in one piece...

I've got to agree with Jim, there's nothing particularly wrong with the PY system.  Handicap will always be a bit of a bodge job and trying to make it 'fairer' is a dangerous road:  Just look at big boat sailing, IMS was supposed to be a properly scientific (!) handicapping system but after a fraught, politicky 15 years they're all back to a good old single number handicap system with all its warts....

PYs for classic boats is a can of worms, if you go on hull age or design then someone can stick a more up to date rig/sails on it and outpace the handicap.  I like the CVRDA system for Roadford of having to voluntarily declare on your entry how 'souped up' your boat is with the handicap being adjusted accordingly...

T
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wave Rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 05 at 7:20pm
True but with one design boats Handicap is going to be way more effective isnt it
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Hector View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 05 at 2:02pm

 

JIM C said
"They can (and should) be fed into the results just like any other event in the organising club's return. But why do you think they should be a better platform than Puddleduck SCs evening series? The big events I've looked at haven't looked any more helpful than my club evening series in working out a meaningful handicap. Far less in fact because our evening series is many more races in many more conditions
."

The original point I was trying to make was that bearing in mind that the main problem with the PY system is the lack of good and sufficient data going into it, events such as the Grafham GP or the Tiger trophy present the best opportunities to compare the relative performance of numerous different classes.

Most club returns simply can't and don't do this. Good old Puddleduck SC may for instance have a  'competitive'  fleet of Vagos (I pick this only because it has no history so I won't be upsetting anyone - yet). Also sailing are a few old Ents, Lasers, Twelves and Mirrors and even fewer Herons, a Europe and the odd Pico, Topper etc. Note - only the Vago is generally well sailed - all the others are sailed intermittently largely by people who largely 'join in' the racing rather than really competing. Don't tell me this isn't a common situation - I see it at several clubs around the country. The return for that club will be 'slewed' against the Vago because it's generally sailed more competitively and hence generally better - not because its genuinely that much faster than its currrent yardstick.  I accept that any Yardstick system will do this but don't accept JimCs assertion that the results of an event such as the Tiger are less statistically sound than an average club.

Yes the Tiger results are for one day and hence fewer conditions - BUT this year we had between F1 and F3 over the three Saturday races and last year F3 -F5 so in just two years we have covered it  - and over several classes. Take our fictional Vagos - the return from the Tiger sailed in a variety of conditions against sveral other equally competitive boats would surely be at least if not more valid than that from Puddleduck SC.

Finally how can anyone argue that the results from the Tiger (around 600 starts), The Grafham GP (again around 600) The Birkett (around 450) etc are not at least as statistically sound as returns from 90% of clubs.  By using a couple or more years results, the returns would be based on over 1000 starts for each event!

Anther important point is that most sailors will trust these returns - whereas those from some clubs for some classes are thought of as 'slewed'.

So again I ask why the results from these single (and in most sailors minds , most important) handicap events can't form the basis of a return to the RYA?



Edited by Hector
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 05 at 4:33pm

[QUOTE]
Actually there are five classes whose PY hasn't changed in thirty years, allowing for the changes in the relative numbers. They are Wayfarer, Enterprise, Solo, Heron, Mirror.

The Solo handicap really hasn't changed? Fully battened sail technology must have increased the boat's speed enormously.

The main arguement about big events being better than small clubs misses the fact that there are maybe 5 or 6 big events, but hundreds of clubs like puddleducks SC, sailing week in week out. So, you will find many different boats being the choice of the hotshots at the different clubs, and so it all should balance out. Provided clubs make their returns. Also, there is nothing to say that just because you enter the bloody mary you are actually sailing the boat any better than joe bloggs at puddleducks SC, but you are competing against national champions, so CSF will be an even greater factor.

By the way, the CVRDA system at roadford also involves a wander around the boatpark to assess the boats. We are working on the system, though, as it tends to be that the more modernized boats are sailed by the keen racing helms, whereas the as original boats are sailed by people who maybe spend more time mending than sailing. So even with corrections made for tune, the modernized boats still usually do best. How to correct this (or if we need to at all) only adds to the enjoyment of sailing in a classic mixed fleet - at least for those who care about such things!

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