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Classic Boat PY's

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Ian S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Classic Boat PY's
    Posted: 11 Aug 04 at 1:04pm

What's the general concensus regarding a different (slower) PY for Classic Boats?

We often hear from certain classes that the older boats cannot compete against the newer ones which may have a different hull shape, and that accordingly in order to encourage people to buy and race older boats within that class, these older boats should receive some form of PY amendment.

For me certain points begin to stand out:

1) The PY of the class is a combination of both the older and newer boats, rather than the old boats being slower, perhaps the new boats are simply faster and so they should have a different (faster) PY. The existing PY could then continue for the older boats.

2). The better sailors in any class tend to be more serious about the sport and invest more of their time and money in it, ending up with newer boats. Older boats may be sailed by less committed sailors and therefore whilst the boats may be competitive, their crews perhaps aren't.

3). A lot of the so called Classic boats are little more than sheds, with 20 year old foils, sails and rigs. A poor condition boat will never be competitive, altering it's PY will then give it an unfair advantage over boats both within it's own class and those in other classes if handicap racing.

The concept of classic PY's will increasingly become more and more prevelant within our sport, I feel it is only a matter of time before classes like the Enterprises and GP's start to consider the issue, and what about old Lasers, Toppers and Mirrors.

Whilst classic or novice categories within a class are all well and good, when a classic PY for one class gives it an unfair advantage over boats in a different class it becomes a different issue.

 

ciao

 

Ian

 

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redback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 04 at 1:28pm

If it encourages sailing all well and good.  However I think the maths are probably suspect.  I imagine the RYA hardly collect enough data to provide an accurate PY for any class - let alone sub classes.  Further the relative performance of different boats in different wind strengths varies enormously.

We are in danger of this all getting too time consuming and a distraction from what we are really trying to achieve.

My advice - get yourself a boat which is just faster than you can handle and learn how to race it.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote fizzicist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 04 at 3:41pm

A bit OT, but what happened to the mutterings of PY's changing with the wind strengths that I heard so much about years back. Look at the relative performance of a Vortex in a F2 and the a F6!

 

I stand by redback's comments - get something you can't cope with and learn - it's more fun than arguing about who beat who in a  slow boat.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 04 at 4:59pm

Surely sailing a boat you enjoy sailing is the point? Some enjoy being stretched by the boat, others prefer tight compitition in a simpler boat. Still others just like the feel/look of the boat they sail.

As far as classic Portsmouth Numbers go, if you sail a boat designed before 1965 and more than 25 years old, why not come to a Classic and Vintage Racing Dinghy Association event? We use modified 1965 handicaps, so bypassing the problems above. Boats range from Vintage N12s through Fireflies and other Fairey boats, to classic racing machines like Hornets, Ospreys and Jollyboats. Wood or GRP welcome.

The next event is over the August bank holiday at Roadford Lake in Devon. Racing on the water is competitive for some and more relaxed for others, as befits classic handicap sailing.

Expect a warm welcome, and don't worry if your boat is the "shed" described above. CVRDA is about using boats, not polishing them. Mind you, beautiful boats also take part!

Find more on www.cvrda.org.uk

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redback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 04 at 7:17pm

I aplaud what the CRVDA is doing, and if I had my old Scorpion 625 I'd be there.  I wouldn't be worrying about the handicap though, getting the right side of a windshift makes more difference than a few points on the PY.

As it is, I lust after the next chance to sail my 4000.

A small question, if all the boats are old, surely its their relative performance that counts - has that changed over the years, or have they all got slower together? 



Edited by redback
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 04 at 9:27pm

I think what you also need to think about is the change in construction techniques and materials as welll as differences in masts and sails (it is a complicated formula).

Take the Fireball (for example) to all intents and purposes a one design hull which must meet a set of measuring criteria. Now because the Fireball was originally designed as a homebuild boat there are large tolerances on some on the more vital measurements.

At the moment the trend if for 'wide' bow boats which go much better in waves as they have more bouyancy in the bow than a 'narrow' bow boat. Also conside that the modern boats are foam sandwich/kevlar/exposy hulls versus wood. There are a couple of wide bow wooden boats around and they are nowhere near as fast as their 'plastic' counterparts.

As for the comments on older boats being shed with out of date foils/sails etc.. just take a look at the classic Fireballs which do the circuit, we have news sails, fully adjustable rigs, new(ish) foils.

I will freely admit that we are not at National Champion level but recognition of the fact that older boats make up the majority of most classes today (there are some 1000 'wide' Fireballs worldwide and potentially 14,000 'narrow'. If people are so short sighted and 'snobbish' to say 'thou shalt have a new boat or shut up' then in my opinion that is samaging to the class and the sport of sailing.

If you look round most clubs these days there are more shoe string sailors than chequebook sailors and anything which can encourage people out on the water is a good thing.

It does need to be carefully watched where it happens though so we don't get the ridiculous situation where a brand new boat simply cannot win (I believe this has happened in certain yacht classes).

Perjaps some of you may wish to also take a peek at the Fastsail site and look at the PY related discussions in the forum there, they make interesting reading and only time will tell if they work (but they seem ti be working well).

Just my 2p...

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 04 at 1:06am
re "it's more fun than arguing about who beat who in a  slow boat."

Isn't "slow" totally relative??? From the perspective of many people's current rides,  Ficcicist's RS 300 is "a slow boat"......

Surely Rupert's point is correct. Enjoy what you enjoy. I've got one of the fastest singlehanded rides around, but I'd prefer to race a Radial.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fizzicist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 04 at 8:15am

slow is of course relative - but who here can honestly put their hand up and say that a heron is exciting to sail?!

What I am getting at is that I've spent the last 10 year sailing Lasers and going home in a less than great mood if I haven't finished in the top 3. Since getting the 300 the game has changed massively, the biggest challenge is sailing it properly and keeping it the right way up in a blow. As a result I'm having more fun than I ever have in a wetsuit...

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Garry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 04 at 8:16am

There are several problems with the portsmouth system - the biggest is that the handicap is based on club returns to the RYA.  This means the following:

1. The allocated number is based on the average sailor sailing the average condition boat at the clubs that have the time and resources to make a return.

2. The system doesn't adjust for the distribution of this data or provide any correction for the variance.  This means that development classes, which would have a skewed distribution are treated the same as a strict one-design that might have a very narrow typical normal distribution.

3.  There are probably not enough data for a lot of classes to be statistically significant and therefore any corrections are suspect.

All this is before considering differences between venue, wind strength etc.

There might be a solution that would improve things, certainly worth investigating.

1. All affiliated clubs must make a return

2. Special events (like the bloody Mary etc) where it is known that the top sailors in each class will be competing in a handicap race make a special return that has a higher weighting in the returns analysis.

3. All open meetings and nationals and club class races provide a return of position and age (this would allow correction for skew in the return for that class).

4. Every 5 years the RYA conduct trials using say the top 5 sailors in the main classes to collect on-the-water data. By focusing on the best sailors the problem of average class ability also being reflected in the handicap is eliminated.

This would be complicated and resource intensive for the RYA, but once set up would give better data to compile the handicaps from. Thus allowing different numbers for age / venue / ability to be compiled from the raw data.  It would still be imperfect and based on averages but hopefully fairer than the current system.

Garry

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 04 at 11:31am
Originally posted by Garry

which would have a skewed distribution are treated the same as a strict one-design that might have a very narrow typical normal distribution.



Except they don't - Last time I looked at the figures the returns for the Firefly - a tight rules boat with similar performance in most conditions - were far wider than those for the Cherub which is an open rules boat with a big variation in different weather conditions and locations.
Here are some notes I wrote up a few years ago about how the system works. Having gone into it in some detail (and thinking that we got a raw deal) I actually came out satisfied that its probably as good a system as we can get. I have no confidence at all that a trials system would add anything.

The other thing that has to be understood is that all this stuff about one designs having closer racing is a complete myth. In any class you care to name the differences between sailors ability are enormous compared to any difference in boat speed. The typical championship fleet has apparently something like a 20% spread in finishing times - equivalent to 200 points of yardstick. For some more notes on that read this ...
ANother example is that at my club we currently give the Solo Class about 15 points extra PY. A Solo has just won our major series, to be greeted with complaints about "gift handicaps" from the Laser fleet. So I reworked the results for the standard published numbers, and the Solo ended up 2nd by one point to an RS400, and still beat all the Lasers...

Edited by JimC
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