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Dakota View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by JRB12

Originally posted by Dakota


I really don’t know where your going with this . I don’t see a connection  between your original allegations of club misconduct/ coverups/ bullying etc  and the fact a competitor in a race is sailing with a hangover or a race officer has a glass of wine between races ( neither of which break any law or regulation. ) .
Given this fact and the fact you also refuse to name the club or even go into the slightest detail about the alleged misconduct/conspiracy, I am starting to feel some sympathy for this club and it’s committee. 



I think you will find that drinking is against the rules for those conducting/ participating in training, racing and race officials. It’s all there in the rules. If you think drinking whilst on duty or between races as a race official is okay, then I’m afraid that attitude is just part of the problem. What sort of example does that set? As I’ve outlined the issue was about a training session where the allegation was that the lead individual had been drinking prior to the session. This was whitewashed. On top of that there is evidence of a widespread drinking associated with racing. It would be interesting to see a breath test the morning after. You can’t say if they were fit or not, but why drink to that state? It brings the sport into thorough disrepute. Watersports and drinking don’t go together.
Of course I am not saying anyone should be drinking while running training especially if in charge of minors , or be intoxicated while being race or duty officer or while racing and would never remain a member of a club where this behaviour was taking place . But in my thirty- five of sailing I have never seen anyone in this state outside of social events at any sailing club I have ever been a member of or even visited. 

BUT there is a huge difference between this and having a single drink between races or sailing with a hangover and IF you think there isn’t a difference, I think the problem might be yours and not the clubs . As I said the more you post the more sympathetic I am to the mystery club.
But going back to your original point , if you have already raised concerns with the club and the RYA and got nowhere , your best course of action is to find another club. Because you havnt provided any evidence of the allegations of drinking or the whitewash for us to pick over and suggest another course of action . 


Edited by Dakota - 02 Dec 22 at 3:58pm
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ClubRacer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 4:16pm
It's not for us to do the investigating, he doesn't need to provide us with anything. The thread started with asking what he can do about his issues with the club and if others have had similar experiences. 


In my opinion and having done my stint on the committee I have an understanding of the liability vs enjoyment factor: Drinking before being in charge of running any training for children and adults I would say is a definite no. A single pint over some lunch while instructing, would depend on the circumstances and is for the committee to decide. A single pint while doing OOD or RIB duty would also depend on the circumstances. A couple of pints before going sailing is OK. Hosting an open event I would expect OOD/Safety lead/RIB helms to not have a drink. We're allowed to drive on roughly 2 pints why can't we sail? 

As to what the RYA say about consuming of alcohol is a different story and not something I ever got involved with

I also see nothing in the racing rules about drinking while racing or being a race official. 


Edited by ClubRacer - 02 Dec 22 at 4:25pm
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 4:20pm
I agree with Nicola Jayne, sounds serious enough for official intervention. You state you have been a witness to this behaviour, you are equally responsible for doing nothing. The governing body you mentioned is presumably the RYA ? They are highly trained and dedicated officers, can't see them not doing a thorough investigation when children are involved.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dakota Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by JimC

Realistically I think you need to find a club that's better aligned with your philosophies. I'm not sure the amount of cultural change required is achievable even in the medium term at any typical amateur club.

This is most concise answer on the whole thread so far .  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dakota Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

It's not for us to do the investigating, he doesn't need to provide us with anything. The thread started with asking what he can do about his issues with the club and if others have had similar experiences. 


In my opinion and having done my stint on the committee I have an understanding of the liability vs enjoyment factor: Drinking before being in charge of running any training for children and adults I would say is a definite no. A single pint over some lunch while instructing, would depend on the circumstances and is for the committee to decide. A single pint while doing OOD or RIB duty would also depend on the circumstances. A couple of pints before going sailing is OK. Hosting an open event I would expect OOD/Safety lead/RIB helms to not have a drink. We're allowed to drive on roughly 2 pints why can't we sail? 

As to what the RYA say about consuming of alcohol is a different story and not something I ever got involved with

I also see nothing in the racing rules about drinking while racing or being a race official. 
Totally agree with all this post ( I have also had a long stint on committee) .I was just suggesting if we had more info of the allegations and the investigation we could see if any mistakes where made in the process and suggest a new course of action for the OP.


Edited by Dakota - 02 Dec 22 at 4:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jlecou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

 As to what the RYA say about consuming of alcohol is a different story and not something I ever got involved with


The RYA has opposed the introduction of drink driving limits for "non professional" mariners as it is unenforceable.




Edited by jlecou - 02 Dec 22 at 4:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JRB12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 6:42pm
Just to reiterate, a full investigation was done BUT it was not concluded properly. At the end of that the accused received nothing for drinking prior to a training session and the investigator was booted out of the club.

-The allegation stated that the accused had drank 4 pints before a training session they were likely to be involved in ( whether as senior trainer or as an employee (club development officer). They claimed it was only 1 pint. None of this was corroborated.

-The ensuing investigation that had to be carried out properly involved the governing body and local authority. The LA asked for the individual to be suspended pending investigation. That didn't happen and the investigation went on with them in post.
- During the course of attempting to collate evidence statements were altered, one of the investigating panel was threatened by the accused. Not all the people involved were able to be interviewed. It didn't get anywhere easily.
- The chair, who happened to also be this individuals line manager, apparently decided on his own without any consultation with the committee or investigating panel to clear them of any wrongdoing and told the LA this.
-The lead of the investigation told the governing body that the process had been hampered and could not draw a proper conclusion because of lies, collusion and corruption. When others got wind of this, a committee member, whose family member was also in the bar, instigated a disciplinary complaint on the basis that the investigator had 'brought the club into disrepute' by saying such things to the governing body. The disciplinary was chaired by this persons relative! 
The investigator who was a well respected and honourable member got suspended and later refused  renewed membership, ie booted out.

I hope that can clarify a little more what this charade is about and that 1) someone has potentially got away with something scot free 2) someone else has been booted out for questioning what has happened. If you can't see that there is corruption afoot here, I don't know how else to explain it. And the primary concern has to be for anyone who is participating in training.

If any other of our club members see what has happened to those that have questioned the conduct of committee members in their operation of the club, they will not speak up if they see anything that's not right. That can't be safe.

The club welfare policy even states:

It is essemtial to develop a culture at ************ where both children and adults feel able to raise issues, knowing that they will be taken seriously, treated confidentially and will not make the situation worse for themselves or others.

Clearly for one person having concerns was not safe and they were suspended.

You could take this as a one off mistake by those accused but there is a wealth of evidence of drinking around racing and as I said as OD. There is a drinking culture that is behind this that is totally inappropriate. This evidence has also gone to appropriate bodies.

Whether you condone drinking and sailing or not, there is no way you can tell that anyone is fit to compete after a heavy night. You can be breathalysed the next day driving and still lose your driving licence.Why should this be any different for sail racing? Many sports have breath tests before competing if concerns are raised. So why allow any drinking at all until after competitions are complete (like the OD rules say below?). I don't come from a sporting background where alcohol is prevalent (despite being in a yacht club for many years), it's a physiological impairment. But in 100's of events over the years in a number of sports I've never seen any competitors or officials drinking, nor boasting about it. And as I mentioned before a comment under a picture of a bladdered sail crew the night before as 'last boat standing' and 'does anyone race sober' gives me great concern for safety. I accept that in leisure sailing, yes people have a drink, no issues, even though the governing body doesn't condone it. But I don't believe it has a place in competition until the event is done and finished. You wouldn't see an umpire at Wimbledon having a drink between matches or Mo Farah having a pint before a race. So why should it be acceptable in sailing?



As for the rules on race officials:

RYA racing rules section B2 and code of conduct, point 9, stating race officials should:

 

9. Abstain from consuming alcohol until duties are over for the day. Race officials must never become inappropriately inebriated during an event. Race officials should also refrain from smoking or vaping indoors or whilst carrying out their duties.

 

RYA Race Officials Code of Conduct

 RYA race officials (race officers, mark layers, equipment inspectors, judges and umpires) are among the most exposed officials of the sport. It is therefore essential that they behave with the highest degree of competence, propriety and integrity. At no time can or should a race official do anything to bring the sport into disrepute.

 

The words of one resigning director:


·        ‘Potentially covering up  drinking alcohol and working on cadets' boats  with no action to even address the behaviour and thus lead it probably to happen again significantly puts future users of this club at risk.


There should be a zero tolerance on alcohol just like any other business, I'm shocked this is not the case and it appears drinking is seen as part of the sailing scene in *********.  This fundamentally is an extremely dangerous way to operate.’

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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 8:05pm
RYA and local authority were happy with the commodore saying it had been dealt with?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JRB12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 9:44pm
The LA, I assume have taken the word of the chair, which is not worth a jot.
Governing body have had numerous items of evidence yet claim to have nothing to do
With club matters and won’t get involved.
A process has been deliberately hindered to ensure a favourable outcome to exonerate
Someone who holds a status in the club, yet abuses their position in the club.
People have nowhere to turn so, resign as directors , where they will be liable for any misconduct.



Edited by JRB12 - 02 Dec 22 at 10:15pm
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Dakota View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dakota Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 22 at 11:10pm
[QUOTE=JRB12]The LA, I assume have taken the word of the chair, which is not worth a jot.
Governing body have had numerous items of evidence yet claim to have nothing to do
With club matters and won’t get involved.
A process has been deliberately hindered to ensure a favourable outcome to exonerate
Someone who holds a status in the club, yet abuses their position in the club.
People have nowhere to turn so, resign as directors , where they will be liable for any misconduct.

[/QUOTE



Why was the LA involved in the first place ? 


Why wasn’t the health and safety executive involved ? 

Also why did the accused have a ‘ line manager’ . What sort of sailing club has ‘ line managers ‘? 

This situation is very very strange .


Edited by Dakota - 02 Dec 22 at 11:23pm
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