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ClubRacer View Drop Down
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Posts: 210 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: RRS 18 Rule change proposal
    Posted: 25 May 22 at 10:05pm
Interesting that I've never considered the outside boat to get mark room while being the outside boat purely by being clear ahead. 

Tactically if you were overlapped outside approaching the zone you could head up massively to ensure you're clear ahead, all be it not heading anywhere near the mark.

Here boat 1 would get mark room from 2?
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 22 at 8:39am
I think most folks have simply thought of it as the boat behind not getting mark room when there's no overlap. It's not, after all, really an inside boat if there's no overlap!

With the rules as they are the trouble with any attempt to break overlap by a big change of course at the last second is the "last point of certainty" rule - the presumption that if its uncertain that an existing overlap was broken just before the zone then it wasn't and vice versa.




Edited by JimC - 26 May 22 at 8:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 22 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by JimC

It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room..

I presume on the current rule it doesn't specify that its only when the first boat reaches the zone. Only when overlapped, which they clearly aren't? After reading all of this I couldn't tell you why I thought with the current rules 1 would be entitled to mark room from 2 but 3 wouldn't be entitled. I've just always thought they were

Other than that I thought it was definitely easier to apply the rules on the test compared to the old one. 

Another way to consider that is that *by definition* you cannot be (clear) behind if you reach the zone first. 
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 22 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Another way to consider that is that *by definition* you cannot be (clear) behind if you reach the zone first. 

Trouble is I think you can. If you consider the boat clear behind entering the zone directly on the rhumb line, and the boat ahead entering the zone at about 10 o'clock
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 22 at 10:11pm
Hmmm, I see what you mean but if you consider the race to be a race to a series of waypoints rather than the one furthest downwind, then the first boat to enter the zone is the one nearest the waypoint and therefore ahead. 
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 22 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Hmmm, I see what you mean but if you consider the race to be a race to a series of waypoints rather than the one furthest downwind, then the first boat to enter the zone is the one nearest the waypoint and therefore ahead. 

Definitions.

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap

One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both. These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.


So ahead and astern is only related to the position of the boats, not to the position relative to the course.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 22 at 10:34pm
Change the definition of that then, whilst reworking rule 18.  Might cause confusion in a match race situation where boats are sailing away from the mark though!
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 9:48am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by A2Z

Hmmm, I see what you mean but if you consider the race to be a race to a series of waypoints rather than the one furthest downwind, then the first boat to enter the zone is the one nearest the waypoint and therefore ahead. 

Definitions.

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap

One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both. These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.


So ahead and astern is only related to the position of the boats, not to the position relative to the course.

That is how I understand it. There was a situation at an open this year where there was a line of 6 boats 1 - 6 numbered from inside to outermost) abreast approaching a gybe mark followed a couple of boat lengths astern by two more boats (7 & 8) side by side. The first 6 boats spread out to gybe and gybed into line heading for the mark at 90º to the course of the boats following from the last mark. Only the three nearest the mark could have been in the zone but, immediately after gybing, the outermost shouted "no overlap" to the following two. In my view there can be no argument that the following boats had a clear overlap at that point and also that the outermost boat could not have been in the zone. So does the call rest on whether the following boats reached the zone before or after the overlap was established by '6' gybing?
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Posts: 3406 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 2:09pm
If they stayed parallel, it wouldn't matter, if they gybed one after the other to form line astern, probably 4 5 & 6 could still be outside the zone. 7 & 8 have the water if they get there first?
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 3:26pm
Yes that was my take on the situation. In the event 6 called "no overlap" on 7 which 8 disputed. In the event no contact was made and 7 & 8 decided staying out of the ways likely to be quicker than getting tangled up at the mark.
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