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Pointless PY Pondering |
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Sussex Lad
Far too distracted from work Joined: 08 Jun 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 359 |
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Topic: Pointless PY Pondering Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 10:56am |
The only thing that is ruining my sporting life at the moment is Covid.
Personally I don't have to be *that* upset to point out that something isn't quite right....It seems to me when someone points out a flaw others tend to get *that* upset in response. It's when the name calling starts. |
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 11:38am |
The thing with fleet racing is that in a small club fleet of Solos or Lasers you can often predict the results before the preparatory signal, you won't be right every time but often enough when you see who's turned up and what the wind is doing. Of course the same applies to a handicap fleet but maybe to a lesser extent due to different classes having different 'ideal' conditions. But it's always the same few names at the top of the results at the end of a series.
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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Old bloke
Posting king Joined: 03 Nov 17 Online Status: Offline Posts: 121 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 12:15pm |
Once upon a time, about 10 years ago(I haven't checked), at least 2 members of the faceless and nameless "they" who run the Portsmouth Yardstick group used to post on this forum. Marke and ChrisJ(?).They were happy to explain in great detail the mathematical and statistical basis of the system.
Eventually they got bored with repeating themselves to the deaf ears of the flat earthers and conspiracy theorists and left to do something more useful. If anyone here wants to know the actual process the the search function will be your friend |
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 2:41pm |
Chris J hasn't visited since oct '19, marke posted in February. A search of their posts has led to some good reading (I even found a post by Graeme where he said "To me I'd rather have the idiosyncrasies of handicap racing than the body size/weight constrictions of fleet racing at least I can use my brain power to overcome my size limitations."!!!!
But finding the posts where they explain the details of the system the PY Committee use to process the returns is a bit more complex so if anybody comes across such a link would be welcome. Edited by Sam.Spoons - 20 Nov 20 at 2:42pm |
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 3:08pm |
Those posts don’t exist, not actual details. If they did the details would be on the RYA site too.
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Sussex Lad
Far too distracted from work Joined: 08 Jun 18 Online Status: Offline Posts: 359 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 3:32pm |
The process is fine as far as I can work out, it's just a shame that more can't be done with the end result. Perhaps, as you said somewhere else Sam, there is not enough data or not enough data from the different types of venue to produce a more adventurous PY system (s)
It seems to me that several steps need to be dealt with in order for things to change. The first step would be to stop calling critics of the system whingers and moaners or handicap losers. My own personal experience of PY flaws comes from sailing a boat that went from having a reasonable |PY to become one of the biggest bandits on the list. It got to the stage were I had to work so damn hard to lose that it was an embarrassment. Our results were way better than our talent. Ditched the boat in the end and what a blow that was , loved sailing that boat with my wife....... so how about stopping the insults and having a proper debate? Edited by Sussex Lad - 20 Nov 20 at 3:35pm |
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Dougaldog
Far too distracted from work Joined: 05 Nov 10 Location: hamble Online Status: Offline Posts: 356 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 3:40pm |
Over the years I have tried to gain a deeper insight into the thinking that determines how the PY system runs, but am now far closer to the viewpoint expressed by Rupert than I am to the thinking that views boats as either dogs or bandits when sailing a handicap race. But at the same time, could a better system be devised? The answer there has to be a 'possible yes' BUT - for all those who think that they could do better, every attempt that I have seen to date has fallen at the first hurdle! That first question that has to be answered (and hasn't been to the best of my knowledge) is.... what is the PY system meant to do? Should a number be a number, with the tacit understand that like the stopped clock, which is right twice a day, that the PY system as is tends to be right or there abouts for everyone at some point in the season. Or, should a PY system be interventionist, so that it tweaks the numbers depending on a whole range of variables? Go down that path and you enter a strange numerical world where the theory results in numbers that might be fairer, but are even more opaque than they are now.
Having invested a lot of time on this one topic, my research showed that probably the biggest mistake made in PY sailing is in the failure to map 'the sailor onto the boat' - if we take that well known personality from on this forum, short of gifting away a magical PY number that any self-respecting race committee would say "we will knock 50 points off that for starters", sub 70kg and a 9m sail, on the open sea, you might have a flyer in a F2 but any more than that and the performance will drop away...no matter how much you can tweak the rig! The sport we have now may not be perfect but from what I see, it works more than it fails and by and large, the right people win - which is surely what the system is meant to deliver... unless I've got it very wron! Dougaldog
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Dougal H
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Rupert
Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 4:14pm |
If those same people would stop talking about smoke filled rooms, systemic bias, how sh*t the current system is and how "they" ought to fix it, I might have more sympathy. And why not just ask for a more realistic club number? |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 4:17pm |
I would like to ask that the PYAG consider the following suggestions:
1. Put a document on the RYA website explaining how the numbers are calculated. 2. Reduce the resolution of the numbers – round numbers to the nearest 4 or so. 3. Adjust the way the relativity is used, so that only classes that have actually gotten slower in absolute sense (or were previously harshly handicapped) get a PY increase. Obviously there are not many classes that evolve to become slower. 4. Find ways to reduce the burden and onus on clubs to alter numbers. 5. Publish the historic PY numbers of classes over the years, so that the relative effect of changes can be better appreciated. 6. Have a different, and transparent, method for allocating (temporary) numbers to new classes – it should not be in the hands of the manufacturer/class to propose a number. At the end of the day, it is not about having a more accurate scheme. It is about having a fair and workable scheme that encourages boats to go racing. |
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Grumpycat
Far too distracted from work Joined: 29 Sep 20 Online Status: Offline Posts: 497 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 4:31pm |
A2Z 3) you do realise a boat py has nothing to do with the speed of the boat only the speed of the group of sailors sailing it ?
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