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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by H2


Originally posted by Cirrus






   
   
   
   There a number of classes where it is openly discussed that the best
sailors in the class make sure they go to clubs that DO NOT submit data
to the RYA ...
Blimey that sounds more like a US election conspiracy theory in the making - are you suggesting that multiple classes with multiple sailors are doing this on an organised basis  .. and not a single person 'involved' has so far blown the whistle and named names  ?   People are really checking out clubs that do returns and moving to avoid them ? 
Well I suppose 'they' must be doing it - stands to reason... (according to 'Dave' in the bar at least after a couple or three pints of  Stella anyway .... LOL )
I never knew ....





Or you can sort the website by class Mike (http://www.pyonline.org.uk/map-classes.php) and see that for the Blaze Burghfield has not returned any data on your races  Wink


Oh dear   
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by epicfail

Yes I know its all based on race returns but are there obvious boat design issues that might account for the differences. Is it primarily down to weight and length?
 
The Streaker has less sail area than the Europe and Lightning but is longer. Does this partly explain it's quicker PY. It's also quicker than a Solo despite the Solo having more sail - but I guess the Solo is a bit of a lardy. Perhaps all Streaker racers really good?

The Lightning is longer than the Europe has the same sail area but the hull is 9kg heavier, Is that enough to explain the slower PY than the Europe? 

Or perhaps I'm a fool to ask?  Big smile


The PY system is broke for many reasons and there isn't the will to change it.  
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Chris_H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris_H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad


The PY system is broke for many reasons and there isn't the will to change it.  

Of course. We have a declining audience and so the Cost_To_Change vs Benefit is minimal.

As for the spurious bar talk about manipulation by top sailors joining clubs who dont submit results - show me the proof, show me the money. Name names. And if you do Show Me, any end result by such an incredible "Lance Armstrong" minority, is really not going to skew the PY to any real degree. It is so preposterous as not to warrant any credibility. 

Sorry, H2, but I just dont buy it. It's beer talk  Wink


Edited by Chris_H - 19 Nov 20 at 8:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by Chris_H

Originally posted by Sussex Lad


The PY system is broke for many reasons and there isn't the will to change it.  

Of course. We have a declining audience and so the Cost_To_Change vs Benefit is minimal.

As for the spurious bar talk about manipulation by top sailors joining clubs who dont submit results - show me the proof, show me the money. Name names. And if you do Show Me, any end result by such an incredible "Lance Armstrong" minority, is really not going to skew the PY to any real degree. It is so preposterous as not to warrant any credibility. 

Sorry, H2, but I just dont buy it. It's beer talk  Wink


Cost may prohibit any change but it has nothing to do with the will to change. I maintain that there is no (with those that matter) will to change.


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Chris_H View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris_H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad


Cost may prohibit any change but it has nothing to do with the will to change. I maintain that there is no (with those that matter) will to change.

I agree, but its a circular argument. Theres no will because there's no perceived significant benefit. Status quo and all that... 


Edited by Chris_H - 19 Nov 20 at 9:20pm
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 9:47pm
Or you can sort the website by class Mike (http://www.pyonline.org.uk/map-classes.php) and see that for the Blaze Burghfield has not returned any data on your races

Sorry -  I've only been a full BSC member for 38 years and as a student member before that as long as I could get away with it... so obviously I was even planning this all before the Blaze even came into being - is that what you are implying ?    (btw - of course when I was in the committee system at BSC we  ALWAYS  put it returns ).  Looks like as soon as the current incumbents start doing it again I'll either have to switch classes or clubs then to prove you dodgy ‘fake news’ conspiracy theorists right !! )  Dream on ...



Edited by Cirrus - 19 Nov 20 at 9:50pm
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 9:48pm
Making a very simple mathematical formula based on returns from your own clubs very complicated. What do you think they are doing? They are not sitting round a cauldron cackling.
Robert
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epicfail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote epicfail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 10:00pm
In an ideal world there would be some form of handicap based on the ability of the boat and not the sailor, would this solve the problem? Probably not, no doubt some people would be happy others not. Are there enough important handicap events to make this an issue? The fact that I think the PY of my Europe on my lake might be a bit low isn't really an issue, after all it's likely to be down to my lack of ability  Smile

The Solo and Europe are very different but share the same PY, from where I sail this looks about right. The Europe and Lightning are not dissimilar but are some way apart. I suppose I was looking for some revelation that would explain this. I don't really care enough to change classes just to be closer to the front of the pond handicap. After all the Europe is a lovely boat to sail.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 11:31pm
Europe is a lovely boat, based on a sail in an older one I nearly bought and might've done so if rigs for the heavier end of the weight range were plentiful.

But, handicaps based exclusively on the performance of the boat can only be formula based and keelboat handicapping in the '80s demonstrated that that approach just introduces a different set of inaccuracies. Given enough returns the PY system is the most accurate available but any statistical sample with only a few thousand samples is compromised. In the current PN list only the Laser and the Solo have more than 10,000 returns, any reputable statistician is going to places his head in his hands when presented with such data...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 20 at 2:40am
Originally posted by epicfail

In an ideal world there would be some form of handicap based on the ability of the boat and not the sailor, would this solve the problem? Probably not, no doubt some people would be happy others not. Are there enough important handicap events to make this an issue? The fact that I think the PY of my Europe on my lake might be a bit low isn't really an issue, after all it's likely to be down to my lack of ability  Smile
The Solo and Europe are very different but share the same PY, from where I sail this looks about right. The Europe and Lightning are not dissimilar but are some way apart. I suppose I was looking for some revelation that would explain this. I don't really care enough to change classes just to be closer to the front of the pond handicap. After all the Europe is a lovely boat to sail.


I think the Lightning PY was closer to the Europe/Radial/Byte/Solo ballpark before? Not sure what happened to change it so much, though as classes go through cycles of popularity I guess the average skill level of the fleet may change significantly and have an effect on returns.

Ultimately PY is just a bit of fun. The Europe is a great boat and sails well to its handicap in moderate conditions. In lighter (Solo) and heavier (radial) conditions going the right way and boat handling respectively count for a lot more in the final result so you can make up for any perceived PY disadvantage with practice! :)
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