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Pointless PY Pondering

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A2Z View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 7:37am
Originally posted by epicfail

Yes I know its all based on race returns but are there obvious boat design issues that might account for the differences. Is it primarily down to weight and length?
 
The Streaker has less sail area than the Europe and Lightning but is longer. Does this partly explain it's quicker PY. It's also quicker than a Solo despite the Solo having more sail - but I guess the Solo is a bit of a lardy. Perhaps all Streaker racers really good?

The Lightning is longer than the Europe has the same sail area but the hull is 9kg heavier, Is that enough to explain the slower PY than the Europe? 

Or perhaps I'm a fool to ask?  Big smile
For boats like the Laser, Europe and Lightning which are type formed singlehanders the Fuller number works quite well as a PY estimator.

Fuller PY = 1800 - (144 x Length) - (37 x Sail Area) + (1.2 x Weight) 


Obviously though the PY is a crude average.  The Solo and Radial have similar PYs but the Solo is quicker below 8kts and the Radial quicker above 12kts. Thatís because the Solo has a relatively big sail but a speed limited hull (short and rockered) whilst the Radial has a small sail and faster hull. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CarbonCopy3459 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 11:57am
I wonder what would happen if the PY were based on the top 'sq. root of the number of entries' in each race (or top 3 if less than 9 entries). Yes, there would be less data to work with (itself an issue) but would it not skew the results more towards boat performance, as it might be assumed that the top finishers are nearer to being the 'ideal sailor' than the average.
Perhaps some boats would never get a result counted Mine certainly wouldn't!  Cry
CC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 12:16pm
I believe the lowest 10% of results are discarded before the returns are processed so as to represent the boars performance in the hands of an average to good sailor. Historically the very best sailors were more likely to race in class events so didn't turn up in handicap results so much.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 2:25pm
There a number of classes where it is openly discussed that the best sailors in the class make sure they go to clubs that DO NOT submit data to the RYA. This way the PY is based upon the mid fleet rather than taking into account the better sailors. If you have been in the sport a while you know this is going on and either join in and get your better helms along to those clubs or you just ignore it.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 3:00pm
Its really not worth spending too much time worrying about handicap racing.

Generally every dog has its day - depending on the conditions and course.

Some classes will be awful in some conditions and brilliant in other and some classes will be ok in most but never excel (Laser ?)

It can never be totally fair to everyone and should be viewed this way

Certain classes also have an advantage - PYs are based on average results (the average boats club racing). Hence the results of older club wayfarers skew the results of the up to date Hartley boats. i.e the variation from one to the other is huge.

With most racing classes the performance variations are far less

All in all its best to accept handicap racing for what it is - some days you wont win however well you sail.

Even for larger keelboats (most of whom race in handicap fleets) its just the same - every dog....

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by H2

There a number of classes where it is openly discussed that the best sailors in the class make sure they go to clubs that DO NOT submit data to the RYA. This way the PY is based upon the mid fleet rather than taking into account the better sailors. If you have been in the sport a while you know this is going on and either join in and get your better helms along to those clubs or you just ignore it.


Perhaps because they are class racing? Otherwise it seems like a very round about way of keeping, by the time sailor numbers are taken into account, a fraction of a % on a yardstick.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 3:46pm
There a number of classes where it is openly discussed that the best sailors in the class make sure they go to clubs that DO NOT submit data to the RYA ...



Blimey that sounds more like a US election conspiracy theory in the making - are you suggesting that multiple classes with multiple sailors are doing this on an organised basis  .. and not a single person 'involved' has so far blown the whistle and named names  ?   People are really checking out clubs that do returns and moving to avoid them ? 


Well I suppose 'they' must be doing it - stands to reason... (according to 'Dave' in the bar at least after a couple or three pints of  Stella anyway .... LOL )


I never knew ....


Edited by Cirrus - 19 Nov 20 at 3:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 4:23pm
I haven't heard of it either, what percentage of clubs don't submit results? Seems extreme to move from a club because your results are affecting your classes PY figure, are mediocre sailors moving to clubs that do send in results?
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 5:18pm
Well here is the RYA website showing which clubs return data: http://www.pyonline.org.uk/map-clubs.php its a bit of a pain as you have to click on the club and then see if they have returned data. Of course the last 12 months is weird due to C19 but I recall doing this a year back and it was clear many of the larger, more active clubs with some of the best helms did not return data and I have asked around as to why this was and always got the same answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 20 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

There a number of classes where it is openly discussed that the best sailors in the class make sure they go to clubs that DO NOT submit data to the RYA ...



Blimey that sounds more like a US election conspiracy theory in the making - are you suggesting that multiple classes with multiple sailors are doing this on an organised basis  .. and not a single person 'involved' has so far blown the whistle and named names  ?   People are really checking out clubs that do returns and moving to avoid them ? 


Well I suppose 'they' must be doing it - stands to reason... (according to 'Dave' in the bar at least after a couple or three pints of  Stella anyway .... LOL )


I never knew ....

Or you can sort the website by class Mike (http://www.pyonline.org.uk/map-classes.php) and see that for the Blaze Burghfield has not returned any data on your races  Wink
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