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Pointless PY Pondering

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Old bloke View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Old bloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 6:05pm
I think it might be fun/illuminating to either run some meetings or ,probably easier, to re score some series using the Fuller rule and see what happens.
I do, in the long term , think I would be on the phone to my friendly neighbourhood dinghy designer to design me a winner
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 6:48pm
The formula is easy enough to use, I set up a spreadsheet when it was first mooted so if anybody can't be bothered to get the calculator out post your boats length, beam, upwind sail area and sailing weigh inc crew and I'll stick it in there.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

 </span>still working
with their abacus and quill pen on ink-stained parchment in


Auroch horn on the cave wall around here...



Originally posted by Rupert

Does anyone know how many different yacht rating systems have been used over the lifetime of PY? And how many yachts were designed so specifically for a particular system that as soon as it fell from favour (or plugged a loophole) that they ended up abandoned after a season or 2 of racing?

And does anyone bar grf want that for dinghy sailing?

Not rhetorical questions - I'd love to know, at least the one about how many rating systems.


Roughly (anorak on): CCA and Rorc rules were amalgamated into IOR in the 60s(?). IOR went through 3 or 4 iterations until it fell out of favour in the early 90s. Despite its faults it was the period when offshore racing was at its most popular and huge numbers of one offs and development boats were produced.

IORs replacement was IMS, promoted as a 'scientific' rule that would accurately reflect boat performance, but it took barely a year or two before designers started driving buses through the loopholes... Ultimately IMS killed participation and made people move to OD racing. The boats designed to IMS ended up just a nuts as some of the worst examples in IOR - bumped/distorted hulls, wooden keels with internal ballast etc.

Since then ORC has taken over as a rebranded IMS in the US/Europe, while IRC is used in uk/France. IRC is a secret rule that spits out a single number and seems to work as well as anything else, despite the predictable cries of foul from those who perceive they have a bad rating.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 7:29pm
Should also add PHRF (USA) and previously PY (UK). Basically PY for cruisers but with a greater priority on adjusting locally/individually - with all the chaos that creates.

Edited by DiscoBall - 26 Nov 20 at 8:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 7:51pm
Since when do formulas designed for leadmining apply to us?

I've only been at this lark for what 10-15yrs now, and there's been no significant change in my time all I've seen is continued deterioration of the sport I enjoy which to remind you is small performance racing sailboats in mainly confined waters.

And how you think you're going to design something that works better than what we currently have (foiling excepted)around that relatively crude formula I don't know, and hell if you do then great if it's easy enough to sail I'll buy one, but what we really don't need is more of the same ole same ole, because it's taking us nowhere fast.


Edited by iGRF - 26 Nov 20 at 7:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 8:03pm
Everybody thinking about how to build a better handicap system should read "Yacht Rating" by Peter Johnson. It's a brilliant book about the story of different systems and rules and how humans always find a way either to beat the rule. In essence moaning about handicaps seems to be the one constant in sailboat racing over the centuries.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Since when do formulas designed for leadmining apply to us?


Umm, because they underline how deluded it is to think that someone could just magically knock up a 'fair' handicap system on the cheap...

There are lots of potential reasons the sport is in decline, but I don't think that the PY system features anywhere near the top of that list. Or if it is a factor then it is just that it facilitates the atomisation of the sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 9:00pm
Still doesn't answer my question, since when? And when was the last time it was changed other than to go from three figures to four?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 9:08pm
In the early days handicapping would have been based on time on distance, as the Yanks still prefer (seconds per mile) rather than time on time as we do it now. If I remember correctly it was around the 50s that the UK worked out that time on time is fairer as well as the start of the PY system based on judgment of apparent performance (Langstone tables?).
No matter what you think of it it's still 1000x better than the dreaded PHRF in the states where handicaps are set by one or two people (possibly in a smoky room).


Edited by KazRob - 26 Nov 20 at 9:09pm
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Peaky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 20 at 10:02pm
Why would anyone use time on distance? For starters you have to know how far you’ve sailed which is much harder than timing how long you’ve sailed!
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