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Rule 78 (Compliance with Class Rules
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rule 78 (Compliance with Class Rules
    Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

An  ILCA/Laser with a replica sail is not an ILCA/Laser but it is a boat similar to an ILCA/Laser. As such it is eligible to sail in a handicap fleet, the PN is at the discretion of the club handicap committee but I suspect few would attempt to penalise them. A class fleet is a different matter but I suspect many clubs turn a blind eye and anybody protesting at club level would be pretty unpopular with the majority. Given that most users of replica sails are sailing old boats and probably not troubling the front runners... And anyway ILCA sell replica/trainig sails themselves...

You mean Laser Performance sell training and 'compliant but no royalty button' sails.

Not sure what Ovington and the other new builders will be doing.

Sailboats and other retailers are selling them so I assume that is with the blessing of the ILCA. LPE can't sell ILCA 'compliant' sails (compliant = "used to describe something that obeys a particular rule or law").

You would need to speak to ILCA or UKLA. Most of the dealers/retailers are Laser Performance retailers and not ILCA/Ovington/Devoti dealers (Ovi and Devoti being the newly appointed builders among others).

In reality ILCA has very little say over what a dealer sells. A number of years back LPE strong armed a number of chandlers in the UK and US to stop them selling replica sails and parts.

The sails they sell as 'Class Compliant' are compliant in every way except the important one which is that the Royalty has not been paid to the rights holder so no button. The 'training sails' could be made of anything and cut differently.
Paul
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 3:14pm
Sailboats are selling ILCA dinghies not LPE Lasers and appear to list the 'official' class compliant and training sails.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3406 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 5:48pm
LPE Lasers are only non compliant in the UKLA, (they have their own class set up, give it 6 months and it will be more visible), hopefully common sense will prevail at the clubs.
There are no non compliant boats of any class at my club, so not sure what would happen if say, someone turned up with a 'Enterprise' that wasn't class legal. 
The club can race what it likes, if they wanted to, even race how they like, they can allow crashing into each other, wouldn't be very good if they then submitted the results to PY committee.
Robert
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 20 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Sailboats are selling ILCA dinghies not LPE Lasers and appear to list the 'official' class compliant and training sails.

As I said ILCA (and by extension the UKLA) have no control over what dealers/retailers sell or who they source from. Sailboats are selling ILCAs made by PSA, I doubt their sails comes from Oz they are likely sourced from elsewhere.

As the market in the UK is established for training/replica/non-royalty paid sails they would be missing out on revenue if they didnt service it.

Or it could simply be a case of stock they already had and they are running it down now they are selling ILCAs. Its a question they might answer if you asked them nicely.
Paul
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 20 at 3:20pm
I got an opinion on RRS78 from the RYA a few years ago. Basically a boat not maintained to its class rules ceases to be a member of that class and is not subject to RRS78.

So IMHO its all down to the NOR, which is distinctly sketchy in most club racing. The NOR states what boats are permitted to enter a race. If the NOR specifies International Laser, and you enter a boat that is not an International Laser then that's cheating. But I suspect that the precise letter of the NOR for most club racing would struggle to prohibit a Laser 2000.

Edited by JimC - 08 Oct 20 at 3:23pm
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Posts: 145 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 20 at 5:18pm
That is an interesting take on RRS 78.  I looked at an old Siljuice Great Lakes NoR and it said under eligibility "The event is open to MONOHULL dinghies only (Includes Vortex). To be eligible boats shall have an event yardstick (See Appendix 1)."   So if that wording is adopted again for the next series they will presumably have to publish separate if identical handicaps for the ILCA and LP dinghies.
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Posts: 1146 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 12:09am
Nick and Paul,

I get your drift.

I think the operation of PY for the NotALaser Class has hitherto relied on a 'gentleperson's agreement' not to protest for class non-compliance.

I don't have a problem with this: I think it's commonsensical and shows a nice 'club' spirit.

Just let someone try to race a Rooster tall rig of the Laser PY, and I bet there'll be protests soon enough, and rightly so.

Does anyone know how the new NotALaser Class Association treats 'replica' sails etc? Does the NotALaser Class permit RealLaser Class parts and equipment?
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Posts: 3406 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 9:17am
https://www.thelaserclass.com/

This is their site.
Robert
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 9:35am
Originally posted by 423zero

https://www.thelaserclass.com/

This is their site.

Wow, what a mess ... I thought for a moment that a group of sailors had got together to create an umbrella for ILCA, PSE, replica sails etc. ... but this is not the case
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3406 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 9:49am
They aren't going to allow carbon top mast or mk2 sails by the look of it, had nearly 800 members worldwide on April 2020.
Robert
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