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Peter Barton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peter Barton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by andymck

.... The talk from the nationals is that the 5 fleet was made up of a lot of sailors who originally entered as a 7...

Andy

To clarify, it was just 3 of the 47 RS Aero 5s, not 'a lot'. Non of those late changers featured highly in the overall results.
The flexibility is there to boost participation (travelling, starting and finishing races), enjoyment and safety and has been there since our early Championships. Going forwards the Class will give thought to restricting late rig changes to just those struggling at the back of the fleet, to control any title hunter banditry. 

Of course this was more of an issue in the RS Aero 7 fleet with 7 good RS Aero 9 sailors joining. However with two larger near equal 47 & 57 boat fleets the Race Officer was delighted and the racing was extra competitive in the RS Aero 7s. With a mix of conditions over 4 days it all evened out pretty well.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by Peter Barton

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

....To me the Aero looks like a lightweights boat so the big sail can't sufficiently compensate for the extra 40kg of displacement... 

I would be very wary of forming an opinion on 'looks', rather than the evidence of testing.
RS Aero 5 sailors regularly beaten by RS Aero 9 sailors on PY in light winds would disagree with you.
The RS Aero 9 gets going just fine, heavy sailors included, in light winds. Technique and sailor skill takes precedence.

Forgive me for imprecise language, my use of the word 'looks' in this case is shorthand for 'my impression, derived from reading about the Aero, it's specifications and looking at them on the foreshore and on the water'. No argument that technique and skill are far more important and, as you say, when class racing the playing field is level.

Don't take my observations as being critical of the Aero either, had my budget being larger three years ago, when I was looking for a singlehander, I think I would probably have bought one.

As a long time (and moderately successful) Raceboard sailor I get the lightweight hull and multiple sail sizes concept but agree with Cirrus that bigger is not automatically better (had my regional series adopted the IYRU 9.5m sail rather than continuing to race 7.5m I would have retired completely rather than just from the occasional National that I did prior to the change).


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 07 Sep 20 at 3:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Peter Barton

 
Surely the ability of a hull to carry weight is more a function of the hull design shape and size rather than its weight. Ultimately it is the all up total weight (boat + sailor) that needs to be considered in terms off 'carrying' ability.
'Overpowering' is not an issue until the breeze is up and a heavier sailor is then more able to deal with that. Before then the extra power does help with initiating speed and acceleration.


So, your boat weights say 50 kilos. we have a hobbit helm who also weighs 50 kilos. We also have a helm who weighs 75 kilos. He is sailing at a 25% weight disadvantage.

Let's take a boat that weighs 75 kilos. and the same two helms. The heavier helm now has a 17.75% disadvantage by my (very quick, please forgive me if i'm wrong) maths.

Thats one reason why the lighter a boat is the harder it is to make it carry weight. Your variable (crew) weight is a larger portion of the whole package and it can be reduced easily and legally by changing the sailor. I think its more of a problem for two person boats, but it must also apply here.




Edited by Paramedic - 07 Sep 20 at 3:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 4:19pm
I think the hull shape is what makes a boat a good or otherwise weight carrier, a 61kg Phantom is a better weight carrier than a 60kg Laser, they weigh the same but nobody is going to suggest that the Phantom is a great boat for lightweights or the Laser is ideal for big lads. Even if you put a 6m rig on a Phant or a 9m rig on a Laser they still wouldn't be.




Edited by Sam.Spoons - 07 Sep 20 at 4:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 20 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I think the hull shape is what makes a boat a good or otherwise weight carrier, a 61kg Phantom is a better weight carrier than a 60kg Laser, they weigh the same but nobody is going to suggest that the Phantom is a great boat for lightweights or the Laser is ideal for big lads. Even if you put a 6m rig on a Phant or a 9m rig on a Laser they still wouldn't be.



I disagree on the 6m phantom rig. The hull is a perfect planing machine and with less weight onboard and a smaller (Arguably more efficient) rig it should fly offwind. The reduced sail area *and* the option for a soft carbon rig upwind would transform it for lightweights once powered up. It'll still be sticky when its light, but with less cargo load...........

The 9m Laser won't work because its less efficient. Look at a radial vs a standard when both are powered up - the Radial is as quick round the course.

Thats not to say btw that the hull shape is irrelevant, it clearly isnt. But the rig and weight of the package have a larger influence than many think. Merlins gave up on weight carrying hulls 20 odd years ago as they just weren't fast enough downwind. The heavies were better off sailing what was thought to be the lightweights hull and hopefully being faster upwind and three sail reaching in breeze.


Edited by Paramedic - 07 Sep 20 at 5:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peter Barton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 20 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

...I suspect that the RS Aero 9s strength is its ability to perform better in light winds, rather than to carry more weight.

As an observer the RS Aero 9 can appears to be suboptimal upwind in a blow where the windage and light weight seem to work against it.

RS Aeros seem to fly off wind regardless of rig size, I guess that the key is being able to get to the windward mark in one piece for the fun downwind!

Agreed about light winds.

Upwind in a blow when overpowered the large sail needs to be flat to minimise windage efficiently. Beyond a certain point there is windage, as per any boat when overpowered.

However I would not cite the light weight hull as a detriment to upwind in a blow. The light low drag hull is easily driven and provided you keep the forces under control and pointing in the right direction the light hull will squirt forwards easily. As wind and waves build on an upwind I slide back about 30cm and the light bow then lifts and steers very easily over each wave.


Edited by Peter Barton - 08 Sep 20 at 5:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 4:32pm
The Aero sailors at my local club change from 9 down to 7 very quickly (F3 and up). By contrast the D-Zero sailors just keep going on the 1 rig in all conditions and seem to perform much better for a large range of helm weights.

Back in the dim and distant past a well known Laser masters sailor told me the 7 was the rig to have if you wanted an Aero, the 9 was just too much (in his opinion). Then there is the issue of heavier sailors changing down as the ind builds potentially spoiling a lighter sailors event.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wiclif Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 4:52pm
Or you could have the issue of the lighter sailors changing up as the wind drops, potentially spoiling a heavier sailors event.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 5:09pm
In a given series of races most clubs and organisers will expect the sailor to stick with one rig. A my home club if you change rigs you will have a different entry just as you would if you changed boats to a different class (which, actually, is what you are doing when you change rigs). I can't see any way of preventing somebody choosing the rig to suit the conditions on a one or two day event though but if they chop and change that should make it difficult for them to win the overall series.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Sep 20 at 6:04pm
Or you could have a single PY that reflects that an Aero which could be rigged with any of the three rigs, this could be faster, since the sailor would always be selecting the optimal rig
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