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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 12:01pm
Surely 95% of the LP boats will go to schools and holiday venues so it won't be a problem for 2-3 years when they get replaced?

And by then there will be a different boat in the Olympic slot and many of the fast guys will be swapping classes anyway.

And I didn't mention the A word!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 1:02pm
But if World Sailing wants a more inclusive Olympics could the alternatively select the LP Laser ( this isnít supposed to be a sensible comment)



Edited by tink - 09 Oct 20 at 4:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 1:43pm
www.thelaserclass.com
they are looking for another builder, presumably due to FRAND, ambitions to take Olympic crown from ILCA.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris_H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 3:15pm
I note on  TheLaserClass site the phrase "However, this does not mean any sacrifice of quality"

I thought that one of the reasons for the breakdown in relations between ILCA and LPE was exactly down to variable quality issues (mast pot variation etc) at LPE and their refusal to let ILCA inspect/verify/approve the build process? Have they improved the build quality since?


Edited by Chris_H - 09 Oct 20 at 3:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 20 at 3:23pm
Maybe "no further sacrifice of quality"?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 20 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by Chris_H


was exactly down to variable quality issues (mast pot variation etc) at LPE and their refusal to let ILCA inspect/verify/approve the build process?

I haven't seen any allegations of poor quality build from ILCA sources. They have stated in public that it was simply that Laser Performance Llc (LPE are effectively history) had repeatedly refused to honour their contractual obligation to allow inspections.
It's hard to know what the cause of the deteriorating relationship with ILCA was. It was, after all, not so very long ago that ILCA changed the class rules to enable LPE (as the builder then was) to continue building plaqued Lasers after LPE stopped honouring their contracts with the design owner. I think there's been something of a changing of the guard within ILCA though.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 20 at 1:45pm
I moved some of my posts from the RRS 78 topic as they seem to sit better here...

Originally posted by Late starter

I wonder who's really behind this, and is thelaserclass.com more than a website designed to sow confusion and generate a view that says ICLA/Laser, what's the difference ?† †I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist but I wonder if LPE are behind this as it feels like classic confusion marketing and LPE would gain more than most from it.†


TLC appear to be supported financially or at least given administrative support by LP Llc or a related company. I think someone spotted their domain registration matched a LP one.

Heini Wellman has not to my knowledge held a position within World Sailing, but he is the most recent past president of ILCA. He's certainly worked long and hard for the Laser class in the past as well as winning a masters Worlds. He's one of a number of EurILCA officers who were very unhappy about ditching Laser Performance.

It is, I imagine, almost inevitable that senior class officers would have a good relationship with their local builders, but the claim is that LP had not served the americas well, so they were left only having friends in Europe. The UKLA seems to have steered clear of the politics and concentrated on doing the day to day work.

One should note, with TLC membership, that it's free, and there were some interesting to Laser sailors videos posted which required people to sign up.

Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by A2Z

. †So which one is the real Laser class?

The one registered with World Sailing.

Why? †For sure itís a real class, it is the real ILCA class. †But not the only real Laser class. TLC is just as much a real class for a type of boat known as Laser. †Which isnít to say I think it (TLC) has a great future, but it is a legitimate (Laser) class.


I can start a Laser class too, but I wouldn't say that makes it legitimate. As (then) recent past president of the UK Cherub class maybe I should have started a new CA when the majority of the committee and the class membership decided to make some rule changes I didn't like.

TLCs builder isn't allowed to sell boats with the Laser sail logo or branding in a significant chunk of the world either. All parties have sure created chaos between them.

Edited by JimC - 10 Oct 20 at 1:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote A2Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 20 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by JimC



Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by A2Z

.  So which one is the real Laser class?

The one registered with World Sailing.

Why?  For sure itís a real class, it is the real ILCA class.  But not the only real Laser class. TLC is just as much a real class for a type of boat known as Laser.  Which isnít to say I think it (TLC) has a great future, but it is a legitimate (Laser) class.


I can start a Laser class too, but I wouldn't say that makes it legitimate. As (then) recent past president of the UK Cherub class maybe I should have started a new CA when the majority of the committee and the class membership decided to make some rule changes I didn't like.

TLCs builder isn't allowed to sell boats with the Laser sail logo or branding in a significant chunk of the world either. All parties have sure created chaos between them.

You could certainly start a legitimate class that included Laser dinghies, but you probably couldnít call it a Laser class.  You could, for example, start a class that incorporated any 14ft single single dinghy.  If enough Lasers, Solos and Aeros joined you may even have a success! 

Iím not a LP apologist.  I donít believe rival classes is good for the sport. But TLC shouldnít be dismissed as illegitimate, fraudulent or fake. They have every moral and legal right to exist, and branding rights covering territories populated by 99% of the global population.  There are no good guys in this mess, and they have all created chaos for sure!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 20 at 2:41pm
TLC have applied to World Sailing for recognition.
I have affinity with their view, stick with the original 'Laser', people who aren't happy with original can drop out of the class and design a boat they think 'Laser' should be, go to a more modern boat, 'Aero' for instance.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 20 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by A2Z

You could certainly start a legitimate class that included Laser dinghies, but you probably couldnít call it a Laser class.

Of course I could. So could you. I'd have to be careful not to infringe on the Laser Trademark, but that's not very hard if you aren't trading. The rights that come with a Trademark are powerful, but very limited, as Banksy recently found out when he tried to abuse the trademark system.

I could apply to World Sailing for recognition too, nothing stops me doing that either. Getting World Sailing to actually recognise my association might be harder, because when LP tried the fake Class Association game with the Sunfish WS made it quite clear they weren't going to recognise two associations for the same class.



Edited by JimC - 10 Oct 20 at 3:27pm
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