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Sailing Downwind |
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Wetabix
Posting king Joined: 15 Feb 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 103 |
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Topic: Sailing Downwind Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 8:53am |
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Have you ever had the experience that you thought you knew something and then you realised that you didn't? I have been sailing for about 65 years and thought I knew how to run. You point the boat at the leeward mark, let the sail out, goosewing the jib or hoist the spinnaker or if you are in a una rigged singlehander you might try a bit of reverse flow leech first by-the-lee funny stuff. But .......... I recently returned to sailing a Phantom having been in a slow asymmetric for ten years and I find that everyone is tacking downwind, even boats with conventional spinnakers such as the N18 who gybe through almost 90 degrees. The point-at-the-leeward mark technique is endorsed by Frank Bethwaite in Higher Performance Sailing and Nick Craig in Sailing to Win (?) so why is nobody doing it? Or have I been missing something for the last 65 years. As an aside, is there a decent book on how to sail which is not aimed at beginners or people sailing Lasers?
George Morris Weta 117 Phantom 903 Spurn (21ft cruiser)
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 10:04am | |
It depends on the boat and the wind strength, point at the mark is fastest until you gain enough speed but sailing the angles to make up for the extra distance sailed. Fast, early planing boats that can generate useful apparent wind gain soonest, slower boats are better doing dead downwind longer.
It's not that assy kites gain more than sym kites by sailing the angles (well, apart from the fact that they are invariable a lot bigger for a given size of boat) it's simply that most assy kite boats can't sail DDW. Think of the extremes, sailing dead downwind at 2 knots will get you to the mark faster than sailing a beam reach at 6 knots (which will actually never get you there). I sail a Blaze and we are about the same speed as a tin rig Phantom but it pays of sailing the angles slightly sooner in the Blaze 'cos we plane slightly earlier and slightly faster. It is, it seems, a bit of a black art and I wouldn't claim to be any good at it (though I was pretty good on a Raceboard back in the day).
Edited by Sam.Spoons - 11 Mar 20 at 10:06am |
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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ian.r.mcdonald
Far too distracted from work Joined: 24 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 440 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 11:31am | |
Approach your club superstar and get them to follow you around and give you feedback. After 50 years sailing I learnt more in a hour with our local multi class national champ than ten books.
But dont tell anyone as they may not be RYA qualified! |
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Wetabix
Posting king Joined: 15 Feb 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 103 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 12:03pm | |
Club superstars have their place in the cosmic scheme of things but my experience is that if you lay on a training day it soon becomes apparent that they have no idea how they do it!
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Sam.Spoons
Really should get out more Joined: 07 Mar 12 Location: Manchester UK Online Status: Offline Posts: 3398 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 12:13pm | |
I think it depends on the club superstar in question. Some of them know exactly how they do it and prefer to keep it a secret, others are happy to share (and, yes some just do it by instinct).
One thing is for sure. I definitely don't know how I do it (on those rare occasions when I do get it right)
Edited by Sam.Spoons - 11 Mar 20 at 1:22pm |
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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
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jeffers
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 4:54pm | |
Depends on your local lake. At my local place it definitely depends on the conditions as to whether DDW pays or if playing the angles pays. The legs are usually pretty short so keeping clear wind from your chasers and staying in the puffs is usually more beneficial than going gust hunting through big angles.
Likewise with a kite boat, the amount you lose gybing the kite is more than you gain by going for the optimal angle. I have had success going deep by the lee at times though, the unstayed rig boats definitely have an advantage in that dept. |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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fab100
Really should get out more Joined: 15 Mar 11 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1005 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 6:38pm | |
Shameless plug, but if my sailing hero Michael McNamara liked it...
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davidyacht
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 6:49pm | |
If you are enough of an anorak you could develop some polars for different wind strengths which would allow you to make a more informed choice of whether to sail deep or bigger angles.
My personal opinion is that unless you are sailing a proper light weight skiff class you are unlikely to find the sweet spot by sailing high that allows you to take advantage of apparent wind angles that let you crack off as speed increases. I noticed this when sailing RS200’s and RS400’s after I14’s. I think I have said this previously, a very successful sailor shared this advice with me “there are only too fast ways downwind ... sailing by the lee or reaching”
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Happily living in the past
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davidyacht
Really should get out more Joined: 29 Mar 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1345 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 6:50pm | |
What book would that be
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Happily living in the past
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Wetabix
Posting king Joined: 15 Feb 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 103 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 20 at 6:54pm | |
Go on then -plug it
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