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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3406 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Under 18's declarations for Club racing
    Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 8:30pm
I can be reported for preventing someone incompetent for conditions sailing ?
Robert
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chrisarnell1 View Drop Down
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Posts: 89 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisarnell1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 8:43pm
Under RRS absolutely yes. Rule 4 says the sailor alone is responsible for the decision to race.
You can have a Sailing Instruction obliging a competitor in difficulty to accept help, retire or go ashore, but you and I don't get to decide who races.
Imagine a race officer saying "No kids".
Or what if you allow someone to take part and then they hurt themselves. If you had the authority to stop them racing and didn't do so - does that make you liable for what happens?
Can of worms if you prevent sailors from making their own decision to race.
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ian.r.mcdonald View Drop Down
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ian.r.mcdonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 9:16pm
I am sure you are legally correct, but the idea that the OD who will effectively be running the club should not be able to stop a boat clearly unable to cope with sailing in extreme conditions is worrying to say the least.

I am reminded of a conversation I had years ago with a newly qualified doctor. They had been advised that in a situation such as being on a plane when someone was taken seriously ill and a call was made for a doctor to assist. The advice was to stay in their seat to avoid legal action if things went wrong
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chrisarnell1 View Drop Down
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Posts: 89 		Post Options Post Options   Quote chrisarnell1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 9:25pm
If a competitor is on the water and unable to cope, you can order them to accept assistance, retire or go ashore. How do you know they are unable to cope before they launch?  And if a competitor is unable to cope - it's their responsibility for being out there, not ours. If we take the decision away from them, do we make ourselves responsible?
Do we have an issue with sailors going afloat for races and then getting into trouble? I don't see much evidence of this at my club and we all have to learn somehow. I imagine we've all ended up on a lee shore or been towed home in shame at some point :)
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 818 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 9:44pm
I don't think it's quite as simple as just reference to Rule 4, if you are dealing with children.

The separate issue of responsiblity comes in. Getting a parental permission form is certainly a key first step, but you need to be careful the club or OOD is not seen as taking responsiblity. At a previous club I think we expected parents of those below a certain age (lower than 18, can't remember exactly) to be present at the club.

If in doubt the RYA legal dept is the place to ask, as has been suggested. I've always found them to be extremely helpful when needed.
Peter
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3406 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 10:03pm
I find it very difficult to see how RYA can order my club to allow anyone who wants to sail, even though they are not safe to do so ?
Robert
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6649 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by 423zero

I find it very difficult to see how RYA can order my club...

To the best of my knowledge the RYA is not generally in the business of ordering clubs what to do, but if they offer well founded advice it would most likely be foolish to ignore it. Equally it would be foolish of me to make any suggestion as to what that advice might be.
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 11:09pm
Ugh - if you can’t get rid of these club officials find a new club!

Makes me angry to see the suggestion that young sailors might be treated like this. It’s not just a question of their craft - many I simply really really good sailors who spend a lot of time on the water. Size is their only limiting factor and they are scaled to their boats!

Thank goodness for rule 4 etc
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3398 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 11:21pm
When I was in my early teens I would go out in F5 singlehanded in a Heron and just blast up and down in the bay. Sure my dad and other club members were keeping a weather eye and had I got into difficulties a boat would have been launched but statistically the worst that would likely happen would be that I got cold and even wetter and had to face the embarrassment of being rescued. I know there was a very small risk of something more serious but it was probably safer than crossing the road.......

I realise things are different now and we need to be more conscious of risk, especially when dealing with other peoples kids but we shouldn't take away the opportunity for them to have real independence, for a for an afternoon at least. Sailing is one of few sports where kids can have that.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3406 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 11:45pm
This isn't just about kids, I would tell anyone they couldn't sail for these reasons.
1 Drunkenness.
2 Illness.
3 Lack of experience.
4 Whatever else.
Picture this, standing in front of the Coroner, they are satisfied you were competent to be OOD,

'DID YOU KNOW SAILOR LACKED SUFFICIENT EXPERIENCE "
For my part, enough said.
Robert
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